Ep 187: Gettysburg Still Teaches Us How To Fight (Part 1)

"Gettysburg's battlefield becomes a classroom for Christian courage, spiritual warfare, and leadership as Pastor Cliff Whitehead connects Civil War stories, Lincoln, Scripture, Job, and 9/11 to eternal perspectives. Are you ready to fight the good fight of faith?"

We invite Pastor Cliff Whitehead back to talk about upcoming Gettysburg retreats that blend Civil War history with Scripture and spiritual warfare training. We also dig into why Gettysburg matters, how Lincoln’s Bible knowledge shaped his public words, and why nuance beats social media slogans when you handle hard history.
• September 24 to 26 “Good Fight of Faith” conference vision and format
• Battlefield tours as object lessons for spiritual battle and Christian obedience
• Soldier diary quotes and testimonies from both sides
• A 9/11 story that reframes courage and eternity
• Why the Battle of Gettysburg is strategically and politically decisive
• Leadership stories about Lee, Meade, and the cost of command
• Slavery as moral evil alongside the need for historical context
• “The Gospel and the Gettysburg Address” trip and Lincoln’s Bible influence
• Lincoln’s depression, the book of Job, and a shift toward mercy and grace

Please click on the underlined links throughout.

Fellowship Chapel, Sr. Pastor Cliff Whitehead - https://fellowshipchapelnj.org/

Gettysburg Good Fight Faith Conferences: https://www.goodfightoffaith.org/
Upcoming Conferences: - https://www.goodfightoffaith.org/event-list
• The Next "Good Fight Of Faith Conference": Sept. 24th - Sept. 26th
- https://www.goodfightoffaith.org/event-details/good-fight-of-faith-conference-1

• "The Gospel and The Gettysburg Address": Nov. 6th - Nov. 7th
- https://www.goodfightoffaith.org/event-details/the-gospel-and-the-gettysburg-address

To find out more, check out our website at playsonword.org.

If you enjoy Christian podcasts, Calvary Chapel stories, ministry behind-the-scenes moments, and biblical storytelling that sticks with you, hit play and come along. Subscribe and share this with a friend who needs hope, and leave a review so others can find the show. Review Us Here!

Visit our website, where you can donate to help us out... Whether a one-time donation, or if you want to become a monthly partner - PLEASE DONATE HERE: https://playsonword.networkforgood.com/

Please keep this ministry in prayer. This program was made possible by the Plays One Word Family of supporters. To find out more, check out our NEW & IMPROVED Website at playsonword.org

Stay Up To Date with our: Plays On Word E-News Sign Up
The Plays on Word Theater team is always setting up new performance dates! Want us to visit your church/venue/community? Please check out: Book It!

To See the Vision Behind the Mission of Plays On Word Theater & Radio, please visit: https://www.playsonword.org/support

Plays On Word website
Plays On Word YouTube
Plays On Word Facebook
Plays On Word Instagram
Email us: team@playsonword.org

Transcript

Opening Thoughts On Lincoln

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Lord, you know. You're now listening.

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Place is the best.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

And when you look at the Gettysburg Address, there's elements of the gospel and uses it in the Gettysburg Address. I mean, the whole idea of the new birth of freedom comes out of Born Again. And in that you start to see him moving towards talking about things like salvation. There's the mercy of God, there's the grace of God. There's, you know, and by the time he gets his second inaugural address, you see that there's elements of mercy, and there's elements of grace. And what do you say?

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Hello, and welcome to Plays on Word Radio, where we discussed, analyzed, work, and play on the Word of God. Thank you for joining us on this excursion today. Let's join Pastor Teddy, also known as Fred David Kenny Jr., the founder of Plays on Word Theater, as he does a deep dive into the Word of God.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Let's welcome um the general Cliff Whitehead to Plays on Word Radio. You are a a a a veteran of our radio program here. You've been on before. Wanted to say hello to you, first of all, and welcome back to the radio program. Now, the reason that reaching out to you is because Pastor Cliff of Fellowship Chapel is doing a three-day, two-night conference titled The Good Fight of Faith in Historic Gettysburg. Yes. And I'm telling you, if you haven't been on a Gettysburg trip with General Whitehead, man, you you haven't you haven't been on a Gettysburg trip. You know, it's it's life-changing, thought-provoking, and just overall fantastic experience. So this is coming up, if I'm not mistaken. The date is September 24th through the 26th. Yes. Yep. Oh, that's a good time to go to Gettysburg, man. Yeah, good time of year. Yeah. Man, I'm I'm contemplating if I can make it. I don't know. I'm gonna I'm trying to see what I can do to make that work. We want you there. We want you there, man. I'm telling you, but there's that period of time. It's so nice because it's cooler in the morning and in the evening. Yes. And uh it's nice during the day. It's it's like you know, nice and warm.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

It's just you were one of the original. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

That's right. I remember I remember go, and I tell you, one morning we went out and this uh fog came in that was it was the eeriest fog. It was about six feet high, maybe five, five, five or six feet high. This cloud cover that just came in over, it just came over the ground. And I was like, man, this is bizarre here, man. Especially after the stories that we went through. Tell us about tell us about this retreat that's coming up, and you then you have another one in November.

The Good Fight Of Faith Retreat

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

So I'm I I wish I was part of me still wishes I was up north. Because I'm like, man, I would love to go to both of these, man. But maybe you can, if I can't make it, maybe you can report, give us a report from there. Yeah. Certainly. Tell us about these, tell us about these retreats here.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

Yeah, the the first one, the Good Fight of Faith retreat conference, that's something we began in 2005. Okay, so that's we've been doing that for now for over 20 years. And what we do in that one is the vision of it is to, in other words, equip the saints, right, for the spiritual battle. And the idea is we go out there and we learn about the battle itself, the history of the battle, and then we do spiritual warfare teachings from scripture at night, using the battlefield as an object lesson. And we also see it as like kind of a mission field for people who just like history to come on the trip and they'll hear the gospel, of course, because one of the things we do on the battlefield over the I've collected over the years quotes from the soldiers, actual quotes from them, from their diaries and so forth. Soldiers on both sides. There are born-again believers on both sides of that battle. And I share those quotes and their and some of their testimonies on the battlefield and or at night when we're doing the teaching. And it's just powerful to hear their testimonies, their faith in Christ, how it was not only helping them in this in the physical battle, but of course the spiritual battle that they're just that we're all in.

SPEAKER_04 5:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

And so that's kind of, but that trip is like I say, that was the very original one. And we've done over 20 of them now, battlefield tours. And so that's basically the the core of that trip.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Can I can I just say add one thing to that? That was that the spiritual warfare aspect, you know, we would be on the battlefield during the day, and then at night we would study spiritual warfare tactics. And it was to this day, it was one of it is one of the most impactful ministries that have have ever run into my being, as far as made an impact on my life. And I I can't recommend it any higher. I mean, I mean, it is it is such a fantastic trip, and it was so eye-opening. And to this day, I'm still I try to I try to give you citation when I can, but I'm still quoting Cliff, you know, stuff that I learned on the Gettysburg retreats to the to to the to the fellowship that I pastor. And I as much as I can, I'm like, well, I got this from Cliff Whitehead. I try to, I try to give, but sometimes I'm just going along and um and and I will and I find myself saying, Well, that's I I got that at Gettysburg, man. You know, so it I just wanted to let the people know, and you know, you know, it this is the type of retreat that you don't forget. It's not like it's not like you go on a retreat and then you forget it like a vacation. This is the type of retreat that ministers, it's still ministering to me 20 years later. I went in 2000, I want to say 2006 or 7, I think. And I might have been 07, and it's still ministering to me.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yeah, one of the things, Ted, I found out is like, you know, in other words, uh, we've had like over the years an a high percentage of people at least come back a second time, some a third. Yeah, you got to. And I think what a lot of it is, people have a hard time imagining what it's like, but once they see it and how impactful it is to be in the locations that these soldiers were, and you hear their words and you hear their stories, and then of course, scripture speaks for itself. That's the most powerful testimony. Yes, and you combine those, and it's quite an experience, you know.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

So it's yeah, absolutely fantastic. And I do owe you an apology for giving you such a hard time about Jeb Stewart. We'll

Stories That Make Gettysburg Real

SPEAKER_02 7:30

get we'll get into that, we'll get into that a little bit later.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

So so I I was out to dinner the other night with with some people, and what they brought up the Getty's, they were asking me about it, and I got to share with them one of my favorite stories because it's because it's almost like the the uh as the more years we do that particular retreat, stories get added to it. And my absolutely favorite add-on, and I share it now, it's now part of the tour, and it was so impactful and so touching. It was about our fourth or fifth trip. And I know you knew the Al and Jeannie Bracca, and Al, of course, died in the 9-11. He was in one of the towers, worked for Canor Fitzgerald, and he was a believer, strong believer. And when the planes went into the building, he was in a conference with you know, people in his office and so forth, and and the plane went in below them, so they couldn't get down, you know, at it, they had to stay up there. So when I we were going across, Jeannie Bracca was on this trip. This was about 2006, 2007. You know, the third day we traced the picket's charge to the Union lines. I love it. And and you know, you remember that one the part where the Confederates are heading towards the wall and they're coming under heavy fire and they stall. Yes, the charge stalls it. And the whole key to a charge like that is to keep moving, kind of like to break open in the a line in the line, you know, steamroll it, if you will. And the Confederates were were stalled. And Lewis Armistead, General Armistead, and there's a famous picture of him, I mean, drawing of him, artist rendition of this. He takes his hat off his head, puts it on his sword, and gets in front of his men and says, I'm going over that wall, who's coming with me? And about 100 to 150 of them follow the general over the wall. They do penetrate the Union line, and of course they'll get repelled. But when I was telling, when I was there with Jeannie Brock, and we were walking together in the group, when I told her that account, she just stopped. And she said, That reminds me of Al. And then she related the story, of course, that she heard through people, I guess phone calls had left that off us and so forth. That when Al knew there was no escape from up there, he got up on the conference table and he said, I'm going to heaven. Who's going with me? She said, and that reminds and I tell that story now, and what a testimony that is, right? And to share that is just so impactful. And here's a woman whose husband had that courage and bravery to think of the bigger picture, right? When life was online.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Yes, it's oh my goodness, it's just uh and I as you were speaking, it all came back to me. I remember that. And also, also just the the

Courage Under Fire And Obedience

SPEAKER_02 10:40

bravery of a lot of these characters. Oh, yeah. Um the uh the selfless bravery. I forget the guy who said he got an order, and he was like, You gotta go. I think near the fish hook, I think. And he and he says, It's murder, but it's an order. And he and he's like, Let's go, who's let's go? And and they actually went, and it was absolutely absolutely amazing to me. I was just like, the the bravery that these guys had. Yeah, I remember you quoting that a lot.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

Yeah, that was over cult fill.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Yes, a cult still, that's it. Yeah, I yeah, that just made it made an impact on me. It made like you know, it's an order. I don't necessarily agree with it or or or subscribe to it, but it's an order, so let's do it. It's an order. I have to carry out my order, my orders are more important than my will. And I'm like, right, what that needs to be applied from a Christian perspective, like when we don't think exactly when we don't necessarily agree with what God has us doing, but if he's called us to do it, do it.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Right. Like in other words, that general that gave that order, he's not infallible, but his orders still needed to be obeyed, right? Yes, and now we our general, our ultimate general, is perfect in his orders. Yes, and so how much more must we say? I don't understand it, but it's an order.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Right. I uh yeah, it's just and these are the type of things that you get on on this on this trip. So I I completely wholeheartedly encourage everybody who's listening. If you can go on this, you need we're gonna put the links in the show notes so you can find out. There's a there is a website that Cliff has set up for this specifically, it fighting the good fight.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

And yeah, it's called uh can I give the notebook?

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Good faith, goodfightoffaith.org.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Goodfightoffaith.org. And that will be in the show notes in case you're trying, you you're worried about spelling it wrong, you you'll be able to click on it. Uh, it'll be on the show notes, uh, show notes, and absolutely check it out. It's it's beyond worth it, it's beyond worth it, if that makes sense. It's beyond, it's better than worth it. I don't know if that is a negative-negative type thing, a positive but it's such a fantastic experience, and it's a life-changing experience. Uh, anyone that I know that went on it, every single person I know that went on it, there was never never one person that said that wasn't that was a waste of time, or I did not learn something from a from a historical perspective and a spiritual perspective. The but the best part about for me, I don't want to say the best part, but one of the great things for me is Cliff knows where all the dead bodies are. Like he the it listen, you can you can go with a national parks type of guide and somebody that the national park appoints or whatever, and they're gonna take you and say, This is where this is where the Gettysburg Address happened, and this is blah blah blah. Not that they when you go with Cliff, he's like, This is where they tell you it happened, but let me show you over here. And uh I it's it is like going to it is like going somewhere with somebody who grew up in that area or you know, and who knows where everything is, man. And it uh just the the impact of that and the historical lessons. Uh I can't tell you how many Gettysburg books I have right now. I have a you know, and after going on the tour with you a bunch of times, it the books are the they light up a totally different way. Totally different way. Was it the wheat field where the they were walking on dead bodies?

SPEAKER_01 14:23

It was uh 20-acre space of ground that traded hands five or six times where they've just the Union captured it, then the Confederates captured it. But after about two hours fighting, there were 6,000 casualties, and one of the observers back then said you could walk across the field without touching on bodies without touching the ground.

SPEAKER_02 14:46

And the horses too.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Yeah, they're dead horses, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

I let me ask you a historical question before we continue with the with the with the rest of what you're

Why Gettysburg Changed The War

SPEAKER_02 14:55

doing. I'm gonna play I'm I'm gonna play Rory Larson advocate right now. And and why is the battle of Gettysburg, why is that even important? Why why isn't I'm a know-nothing citizen, I don't know anything. I I didn't pay attention in history class or whatever. Why is the Gettysburg why is the the Battle of Gettysburg, what is significant about that?

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Okay, good question. Some people, some historians will say it's the turning point of the Civil War, but I would agree the historians that say it is a turning point. There are other turning points as well. Happening at the same time that this battle was going on was the Battle of Vitzburg. Grant was out in the West fighting, and that was the stronghold of the Confederates out in the West. But one of the reasons that Gettysburg is probably the most significant battle of the Civil War, it happened about midway in the Civil War. And pretty much from the very beginning of the war in 1861, the Union pretty much controlled all the battles in the West. They won most of the battles in the West. It's a different story in the East, particularly when Robert Lee Lee took over command in 1862 of the Army of Northern Virginia, which included other Confederate states. That was what it was called, the Army of the Northern Virginia, because that's where most of the battles were fought. And he was able to defeat a number of generals. And again, with less men, less munitions. South had less factories, they couldn't reproduce their weapons or produce their weapons as quickly or as many. They had less men, but he pulled off victories against Union generals who had many more men and munitions. You kind of look at the strategy of the Civil War. The Union had to conquer the South to keep them from leaving. The Confederate strategy was not to conquer the North. They knew they couldn't do that anyway because they didn't have enough men, nothing, you know. The idea was to prolong the war long enough that the North grew battle battle weary and they said, Oh, let's settle with the South, let them just go. We've lost too many people too many men, you know, and so forth. So Lee, when he came north to fight up in Gettysburg, he felt because he knew that the political tides were turning in the North, you had the peace democrats in the North who were against Lincoln, and they were talking about let's end the war. They weren't so much anti-slavery that peace democrats, they were more against the war. Okay, so they just wanted to let the South have their terms and go, let's end this war, it's hurting us economically, we're losing lots of young men, and so forth and so on. And Lee Lee understands that. And after his last battle down in Chancellorsville before Gettysburg, where he they he pulled up this this big upset victory, he's outnumbered two to one, right? And he wins this victory. And uh but he knows he has to do more than that. Like he he writes to Jefferson Davis and he says, We can't afford any more of these victories. And what he meant was that even though he won, he suffered lots of casualties, so did the North. But the North could replace the men.

SPEAKER_02 18:20

He couldn't.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

So he says, so he wants to get Jefferson Davis's permission to go north to invade the north with the idea of winning a big victory up maybe near the Harrisburg area or near Philadelphia or close to Washington, D.C. And if he wins a major battle against the main army of the Potomac, the Union Army, Army of the Potomac, in Northern Territory, the political pressure, Lincoln's not going to be able to survive. Then the Democrats are gonna get a lot of support because people in the North go, hey, look, you know, we don't want to come it up here, you know.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

He was playing 3D chess, basically. He was playing chess, yeah. He was like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

So that was the idea. So now if he wins up here, that could have changed the whole Lincoln might this is 1863. Lincoln was running for re-election in 1864. Re-election, yeah. And you know how war can change a war that drags on can change even supporters against the president. Yeah, unless they're hardcore supporters, they'll you know sometimes switch at that point. You see what happened with Vietnam, right? I mean Johnson. And so so that was why it was such a significant battle. And it was and it was the first time that Lee suffered a major defeat.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Right. And so he trained all these other generals that he was fighting against. He was their instructor. Uh you know what I mean? Oh, yeah. He was there, he was there at West Point. He was he trained all these guys and and led a lot of them in what was it, what was the war before that? Was it Mexican? The Mexican, Mexican-American War, I forget the 20 years before he he led a lot of these guys, already led them, and so he yeah, he ran circles around them, though.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah, and he did, and he knew them, and he knew guys like McClellan, yeah, Joe Hooker. How about Burnside? How about Burnside? Well, not so much him, but yeah, that's Burnside. But someone like McClellan was more afraid to lose than he wanted to win, you know, because of his reputation and so forth and so on. So he knew how to use that.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Now, when Meade gets assigned to be the head general of the Army of the Potomac three days before Gettysburg, because Lincoln fires Hooker, yeah, right, and appoints Meade. And Meade was not like a flashy general, he was a no-nonsense type guy, not charismatic in any way or shape or form. And when news gets to Lee, one of the Confederate officers came in, and we just received news. He said that Joe Hooker has been fired. Lincoln has fired Hooker, and he's appointed George, appointed George Meade. And there are other Confederate generals in the room saying, Oh, Meade, he's gonna be an easy pushover. And Lee looked at them and he said, Oh no, he won't. Yeah, because General Meade will not make a mistake in my front, and if I make one, he'll make me pay for it. Yeah, yeah. And so he they finally had a fighting general who wasn't afraid to lose. And I'll share this point here with the at the end of the war when Lee Samatic, just before the end of the war, when Lee surrenders to Grant at Appomattox. Yeah, Grant was the overall commander of all the Union armies in the different fields, west and south, and you know, the army of the Potomac, but he traveled with the Army of the Potomac, where Meade was still the commanding general of that army, but Grant traveled with him. And after the surrender, you know, the this army started to mingle. And Meade wanted to go over and see how Lee was doing. He hadn't seen him, of course, in years because when Meade went to West Point, Lee was The superintendent. Right. So and and they also fought briefly together in the together in the Mexican War before the Civil War. Right, right. And so he goes over to see Lee, and Meade relates the story. He said, I got down off my horse, and General Lee walked over to shake my hand. And you know, I shook his hand and he looked at me and he said, General Meade, you have a lot more gray hairs than when I last saw you. And Meade looked at him and said, You're responsible for

Lee Meade And Faith After War

SPEAKER_01 22:30

most of them.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

I love it. I love it, man. Oh, oh, that's fantastic. That is great. I love the stories about Lee that, you know, uh you can't really find in in, I guess, textbooks after the war at the was it the Episcopal Church when they were doing communion.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

You know, you want to tell that, tell that story?

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Sure. There at the Episcopal Church, he was Episcopalian. He was he was a born-again believer, like Stonewall Jackson was, and of course, the union had their you know, born-again believers as well. And it's just a great testimony how they how can I say how they conducted themselves, you know, as believers in Christ. Yeah. And some when you think about fighting a war, you know, General General Longstreet one time said to General Lee, you know, they never seemed quite like the enemy. You know, like in the other wars that they fought. Like, you know what I mean? And Lee goes, I know, I know. But anyway, at the end of the war, uh Lee uh was attending an Episcopal church, and it was shortly.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

Stripped of his citizenship now. He's officially stripped of his American citizenship. Yes, which is oh, that's hard.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

Yeah. And he he was at the service, and it was shortly after these slaves were let free. They were freed, and and and they're in Richmond, you know, they're in that area, and and actually was in Lexington. So this was the first time that Lee was in a church. I I couldn't say this was the first time, but it's very early on after the slaves were released. The slaves now, the African Americans now were going into churches where that and some churches they used to have to sit up in the upper level, and some churches they had a separate building, like a Black Sunday school or something like this. And so in this episcopal church, they went up to the railing for the Lord's Supper. Okay, and so the time for the Lord's Supper comes, and a bunch of the African Americans just start to go up. It's one of their first times they can go in, you know, in that like in that manner. And none of the white people in the church went up to the railing. And the writer of this article wrote that, and then this elderly gray-haired gentleman got up, walked up to the railing, and knelt down next to there was a space at the railing, and he knelt down next to an African-American man. And then slowly, not all every all of them, but a number of the white people in the church joined them at the railing. And that always just touched me, you know. And Lee was someone else.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Yeah, of course, that that elderly man, that was General Lee.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Yes, I'm sorry, that's right. Thank you for filling that in. Yes, that was General Lee. That was generally, yes, indeed. And and then you have guys like Stonewall Jackson. Now, you know, in the South, of course, you had plantation owners that were cruel and brutal, and they thought blacks were inferior, they wanted slavery to go on forever. But that was not every southerner, you know. I mean, and most of the soldiers in the Confederate Army didn't own slaves, you know, they the rich plantation owners did. And uh you had someone like Stonewall Jackson, strong believer, right? He he had he had two young black men that he bought, and the reason that he bought them was he understood that they could end up in the on a plantation or on a farm where the the master or the owner of the farm was not benevolent, was not and so what he did was he adopted well, he he bought them, but he looked at himself adopting them and he would bring them to church with him, and he would build a black Sunday school in Lexington, Virginia. Wow, so that they all could attend and hear the gospel. Like whenever he wrote home when he was out on the battlefields, whenever he wrote home, he would give his wife a short report of how things were going on the battlefield. The rest of the letter was how is the how is the Sunday school going? How are my young men doing? And he looked at it as a discipleship. And after the war, after the war, no, actually, this is about, I want to say, I don't know, 15, 20 years ago, there's a small church attended mostly by African Americans down in Virginia. And it's not a Catholic church, but they had stained glass windows, and they have different sceneries in those things. And one of them is of Stonewall Jackson kneeling down by a riverside. And this newspaper reporter goes, looks at this the pastor, and he goes, She goes, How can you have Stonewall Jackson? You know, this is at the time they're taking down Oh, yeah, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Monuments were all bad back then, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

And so the thing was, is like, you know, how can you have Stonewall Jackson on your church? He was a racist, he was a bigot. He was and the black pastor, he said, Oh no, ma'am. You know, and his I he was like a descendant of the pastor from uh he said, Oh no, Mr. Jackson, he um he made sure my my ancestors heard the gospel. Wow, he made sure that that they were able to attend church, and and they saw they saw a whole different picture of him. And I tell, I think one of the shameful things

Slavery History And Honest Nuance

SPEAKER_01 28:05

is you had you have these extremes, right? You have after the civil war ends, you have the lost cause. In other words, there's writing about the South where General Lee is like almost like a saint, and all these so you had that extreme. He wasn't a saint, but he was a believer, and and he he struggled with like everyone else. He wasn't someone that was for slavery. You know, in fact, he he was a military man. He the slaves that he had were through his wife, and the father-in-law, his father-in-law, when he died, said, I would like to give these slaves their freedom a year and a half after I died. So they followed his father-in-law's wishes. So free. So I guess what I'm saying is you have the extremes, right? You have you have like every person, the extreme of every person in the South, they weren't bigots. Well, there were a lot of bigots in the South, you know, and there were lots of cruel plantation owners. But then you had the other extreme. Everybody in the South was a racist. Everyone in the South was for slavery. That's another extreme.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

That's not accurate, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Right. So you have to look at each person individually. What was their story? You know?

SPEAKER_02 29:11

That's it's it's way more complex than painting with a black and white brush as the as many it's lazy intellectualism to just paint with with a black and white brush and at and look at this part of American history and boil it down to everybody was racist, therefore, therefore, they were if if they were part of the South. It's just that's not the case, man. And it's not the case, it's not the case that everybody in the North was anti-racist. So it's way more complex.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

And unfortunately, it's intellectually dishonest for people to actually go down that route and try to make that case, but and I think the thing of the thing of it is is that it's and I think social media has exacerbated the problem.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

It has.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

In other words, people don't do their research.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

They just no critical thinking, man. There's no it's parent with let's parrot and copy and paste what someone else actually put research into. Right. And then demand if you disagree with it, that you know, I'm gonna call you names, or demand that you agree with me. And if you don't agree with me, I'm somehow you're an evil person.

SPEAKER_01 30:25

And the bottom line was slavery was wrong. There's no question about that. And we're all glad it's it's done and over with, you know. But it's you know, yeah, we have to look at gee, how did the people at that time deal with it?

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Yeah, man. Context. And they all had different thoughts on it, you know, and they it and it was it's a complex context. It's very it's complex, man.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

It's sure even the way they looked at their state, they thought their state was their first loyalty, right? And then to their country. So there's a lot of southerners. Do you know the guy who wrote he wrote a series? His name is Shelby Foote. He wrote a classic series on the Civil War. He died about he died in the 1990s. And he was and he was one of the experts on the Civil War. Really, he took 20 years to write these three volumes. You know, he did his research, you know. And they and he was from Mississippi. And they asked him, when was somebody who was interviewing him? They asked him, if you were living in eight the 1860s, the 1850s, would you who would you have fought for? And he looked at the interview and he said, I would have fought for the state of Mississippi. He goes, not because I was for slavery, but it was he goes, like another, you've got to remember who you're you grow up with people, you work with people, you have connections with people. And then something like the Civil War happens, and everyone in your neighborhood is saying, I'm joining the army to defend our home state. And he goes, To to not fight for the South would have been to deny all of that, you know. And I thought it was a very good perspective because right off the bat he goes, I wouldn't have been fighting for slavery. But in a sense, you can say he was, yeah, but but that's not you know what he's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

The states' rights have never have never actually gained any type of ground back since the Civil War. It's always the federal government has grown like has gone like this, and the states have gone like that. And going back. That's not healthy, it's not, it's not healthy at all. You know something? As you were speaking, my I it reminded me, my father's mother, her maiden name is Jackson, and they're they're from Virginia. And so I could be related to Stonewall Jackson. There you go. Maybe not by blood, but you know, you know, you're a brother in the Lord. Well, hey, you know what? You're right, and that's actually better. That so it is blood, but the blood of Christ, which so which brings me to another another conference you're

Lincoln The Bible And The Address

SPEAKER_02 32:50

doing. This one is a uh, I guess a two-day. Is it the the the Lincoln, yeah? And this one's in November. Have you done have you done one in November uh out in Gettysburg?

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Yeah, it's nice actually. Well, you know, we're not on the out on the battlefield as much, but the weather is usually nice.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

It's early November, so it's probably it's right around, you know, just past uh the late October when it's when you have Indian summer kicking it.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Like jacket weather, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

And this is Lincoln and the Gettysburg Address.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

It's it's actually called the Gospel and the Gettysburg Address.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

Oh, the gospel, okay. The gospel and the Gettysburg Address. Well, it's explain that to me.

unknown 33:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

When I read the Gettysburg Address, or when I learned it in school, I didn't I didn't see the gospel in there, but apparently the gospel had some influence on it.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

Another one of my favorite guys in history, Abraham Lincoln. I started this back in three years ago, and this will be our actually, this will be our third trip in this one. And again, November 6th and 7th. And what we do is we Lincoln, four months after the Battle of Gettysburg, he came to Gettysburg to dedicate the the National Soldiers Cemetery that they're going to dedicate there. And so he came there to dedicate that. Uh and he came and he was in Gettysburg for 23 hours. So we our whole conference is 23 hours long. So we try to mimic that. And we we we started at the train station he came in, and I, you know, get the little history in the background of that. There the place he stayed at is now a museum. The night he was there in the stay at that is now a museum. So we visit that. We also so what it is is that Friday night we we go to the train station, we learn about his trip to Gettysburg, why he was coming, and then we go to where is where he stayed, the hotel where he stayed at. Actually, it was a lawyer's house that he stayed at near the town square. And uh we tell a little bit about that. Then the night teaching, that first night teaching, is about the title of it is the Bible's influence on Abraham Lincoln as a man and as president. And if anyone's read anything about Lincoln, the man knew the Bible, he revered the Bible, and he you know, and he quoted the Bible often.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Many people during that during his time period, that was the school textbook. Sure. I mean, it wasn't a good idea. The Sears catalog, they didn't have YouTube, they didn't have Netflix or Amazon Prime, they had the Bible, man. They they had the Bible and Sears, and then later what Montgomery Ward, I guess, but I guess it was Sears first. But before he became a believer, he still could probably quote scripture better than most Christians today.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

Yes, yeah. And and what we do on that night is again with the title, the Bible's influence on him. I mean, Abraham Lincoln, his specific struggles that he had, he battled with depression for most of his life. And the Bible was something he always went to for comfort, for strength, for wisdom. In other words, he went to church. He went to church often as a young adult, growing into adulthood, but he never joined a church.

SPEAKER_02 36:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

So he went to a church, but he never joined a church. And someone, someone asked him why he doesn't join a church. He goes, Well, he goes, when I can find a church where people love the Lord their God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength in their neighbor like themselves, I'll I'll join that church. And of course, at that point, he's knowing that that's you know, he's not recognizing that that's something that's none of us are perfect in right.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

Yeah, and if you and if you if any of you listening, if you find that church, guess what? You just wrecked it, it's not a perfect church anymore. No longer a perfect church. There is no such such thing, right? Except for the one the Lord is going to present at the end of all things. He's gonna present us perfect, but we're not there yet. So anyway, keep going. I didn't mean to cut you off.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

What I go in it with too is like he had depressed, he struggled with depression, but he also had this belief, and I go into why in more detail when we're there, that he had the mark of Cain, that he himself saved Lincoln. Wow, really, and he struggled with that for a long, long time. And so, but yet he, in other words, and because a lot of times when you hear him quote the Bible, he quotes about God's sovereignty and his providence and his power. But very early on, and even to the time when he first becomes president, you never really hear him talk about salvation. And so, but what I believe happens to him, like there's a great story that you know, when when you think about what he went through when he got married, before he was president, one of his young children died, right? Right. And then while he was president during the Civil War, uh another one of his children died at seven or eight years old. And and then, of course, his wife had his her struggles, which added to his struggles. And also the the you talk about a divided country, right? They were shooting at each other, just about to shoot at each other, and then began to during his presidency, right? I mean, what what does it do to the image when you once you become president, 11 states leave the union?

SPEAKER_02 38:14

Yeah, right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

I mean, he never he never commented on that, but you just you know it had to have an impact on that.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Had to.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

He struggled all that one night. He came in looking so depressed that one of the secretaries in the White House, who was good friends with Mary Lincoln, saw him go walk by her, walk by her, go into the parlor and sit down, and he's and just look very down and depressed. And then he about a half an hour later, he comes out of the out of the room, and he's his countenance was much more lit up, you know. And she after he left the room, she went in to look at what he was reading, and she knew he had been reading his Bible, but she was curious as to what he was reading, and he had left the Bible open to where where he was, and he was in the book of Job. And she said he's often spent lots of time in the book of Job. I guess he could relate to that, you know, and how Job felt, yeah, you know, and yeah, and I'm sure Job went through those periods of depression, you know. Yeah, and so you saw him battling with his faith. So I in in that the that teaching at night, I take I go through that his life and the how the Bible influenced him right up to the time at the beginning of his presidency, and then the next morning is the gospel and the Gettysburg Address. I believe that he came to know Christ sometime around the Battle of Gettysburg or after, and his preparation may be for the Gettysburg Address or shortly after the Gettysburg Address. And I share some evidence in his last year, some things that he said and what other people said that I think are strong evidence that he did give his life to Christ, you know. And when you look at the Gettysburg Address, there's elements of the gospel, and it's been a fascinating study. I still need to study more about it, that he takes elements of the gospel and uses it in the Gettysburg Address. I mean, the whole idea of the new birth of freedom comes out of Born Again. Yeah. Right. Right. And he and he talks, and and and in that you start to see him moving towards talking about things like salvation. You know, there's there's the mercy of God, there's the grace of God. There's, you know, and by the time he gets his second inauguration over a year in 1864, right, when he's re-elected, shortly, he's only in a few months before he's elected. A couple months, actually two months, because they get inaugurated back then in March. Oh, destinated in April. So but in that, in that second inaugural dress, you see him, you see that there's elements of mercy in his elements of great in what he was saying.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

There's a distinct change that from earlier on in his writings and speaking.

Support The Show And Closing

SPEAKER_00 41:15

This program was made possible by the Playson Word family of supporters. To find out more, check out our website at plazonword.org.