Plays On Word Radio

Ep 118: Sacked and Saved - How a Pro Quarterback Found Christ (Part 1)

Pastor/ Artist Fred Kenney Jr. Season 3 Episode 118

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"Have you ever seen challenges in someone’s life become a turning point for discovering deeper purpose? Today, former NFL quarterback Dr. Gary Cuozzo shares how faith, loss, and relationships led him from football glory to Spirit filled and impactful ministry beyond the game."

What does it take for an NFL quarterback to find deeper meaning beyond the game? In this captivating conversation with Dr. Gary Cuozzo, we discover how a professional football career intersected with a profound spiritual awakening. Gary takes us through his journey from backing up Johnny Unitas on the Baltimore Colts to playing alongside the legendary Purple People Eaters with the Minnesota Vikings during football's golden era. But beyond the highlight reels and stadium roars, Gary's story reveals something more valuable—how meaningful relationships with Christ-following teammates sparked questions about faith that would transform his life.

The contrast between yesterday's NFL and today's game becomes strikingly clear as Gary shares memories from an era when professional athletes often worked off-season jobs to make ends meet. His signed contract with the Vikings for $65,000 (after being traded for two first-round draft picks) highlights how dramatically the professional sports landscape has shifted in terms of compensation, player loyalty, and personal conduct on the field.

Most compelling is Gary's vulnerability in sharing his evolution from legalistic religion to grace-filled faith, and how personal tragedy became the catalyst for his most impactful ministry years. After losing his son in 1990, Gary found himself speaking in schools throughout New Jersey, using his platform to reach young people with both anti-drug messages and spiritual truth. His instrumental role in establishing the Fellowship of Christian Athletes (FCA) in New Jersey from humble beginnings in his orthodontic office has led to a ministry now spanning approximately 150 high school chapters.

Whether you're a sports enthusiast, a person of faith, or someone seeking meaning beyond professional success, this conversation offers wisdom from a life well-lived at the intersection of athletic achievement and spiritual purpose. Join us for this powerful exploration of finding true victory beyond the scoreboard.
Fellowship Of Christian Athletes - FCA: https://www.fca.org/
Gary Cuozzo Truth In Sports: https://truthinsports.org/gary_cuozzo/

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Speaker 1:

Lord, you know you will now listen to Plays on Word Radio.

Speaker 2:

It's the best.

Speaker 3:

We'll be right back. You're the only name. You're the only name. You're the only name. Hello and welcome to Plays on Word Radio, where we discuss, analyze, work and play on the Word of God. Thank you for joining us on this excursion. Today let's join Pastor Teddy, also known as Fred David Kenny Jr, the founder of Plays on Word Theater, as he does a deep dive into the Word of God.

Speaker 2:

And good afternoon everybody. How are you today? I've been waiting to say that for so long. Those of you that know you guys know, yeah, I stole that from Mike and the Mad Dog from back in the day. Today is our sports edition. Welcome everyone to Plays on Word Radio special sports edition. And thank you very much, katie Kenney for that intro, and Josh Taylor, we got something special for you today, man, when you say this is a get, this is a get man.

Speaker 2:

One of our early supporters we're going to interview and this guy is somebody that is very special to me and to many of you listening. It is mr gary quazo, that's right. And garrett, some of you old heads are going oh, what? Yeah, gary quazo, he played, uh, with the colts. He backed up johnny you. Yeah, he backed up johnny you. Yeah, johnny unitas, come on now. He backed up johnny unitas, uh, when the saints that's my brother ben's favorite team, or used to be, when the saints were an expansion team. He was there, I guess, their first year. And then get this he played with the uh, minnesota vikings and, yeah, he played at the same same time as the purple people eaters. Oh, one of my cousins is going nuts right now, because he that's his team and that's his era. He loved them, man. I think that's what made him love, uh, the minnesota vikings.

Speaker 2:

But most important of all of all the accolades I could give this, but most important of all of all the accolades I could give this guy. Like, out of all the things I could say about this guy and I could continue, there's many things I could say, but the most important is that he is a man of God. Since I have known him, he is a man of God that loves Jesus. So check it out. We're going to check out Gary Quazo right now. I love it. Thank you so much for doing this. This is absolutely a major blessing for us, and welcome to Plays on Word Radio, mr Gary Quazo.

Speaker 2:

I have often said when I grow up, I want to be like you. Yeah, so when I grow up, amen. For those that might not know Gary, gary is well. Let me say this first and foremost, Gary is one of the. He's an early supporter of Plays on Word. He's helped us out when we really needed help and we are so grateful for your advice, your contributions. You came down when we were over at the church in Tom's River. You came and did our men's retreat for us and you came to one of the plays we did over there in Tom's River. We did our Pete play Yep the boat and I did our Pete play Yep the boat and I think up until that point you only knew me as, like, an athlete.

Speaker 2:

You're right and I'll never forget it as long as I live. You came up to me and said wow, ted, I didn't know you could beat up on the piano like that.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's back for Vic Caboo, huh, Right right, right.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, that's a while back. Do you remember any of that play? Did anything stick out to you when we did that or that, when you had the boat and you're in the boat and all that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I do remember that, yeah.

Speaker 2:

We went through the I guess you could say it's the gospel according to Peter. Now, those that don't know you, I started to say you know, I've always known you as a man of God. When I was a little kid in the seventies, I went to Shore Christian Center. I think that's where we first met Shore Christian Center. I was one of those kids running around and I remember hearing the name Gary Quazo, gary Quazo. Then I come to find out that you are an NFL player. You played in the NFL. Now, was it from 62 to 73? Is that correct?

Speaker 1:

I think it was 63 to 72.

Speaker 2:

63 to 72. Okay, I'm a little bit backwards. Wow, you played when it was. That was real men back then playing man. I mean, you didn't have a lot of these in the grasp rules. Sure, different things that we have today. I had the privilege of watching a Super Bowl with you a few years back. I believe Tom Brady was in it, and let me tell you, watching the Super Bowl with you, that was one of the highlights of my viewing any football games ever, because of your insight. I remember you saying watch how he's throwing the ball, notice how he's throwing the ball high. You noticed all these different things and I played football, but you just had it at the level that you played in the NFL.

Speaker 1:

Well, for Tom Brady. Tom Brady was a little yeah, but I was. He didn't do many things wrong.

Speaker 2:

I was blessed how you were technically breaking the game down for me. That was a major blessing for me. So tell me something, though I know Shore Christian Center. That's where we first met, and then, of course, you got involved with FCA. Maybe we'll talk about that, but can we go back? How does Gary Quazo, how does he meet Jesus? What is your story?

Speaker 1:

Well, it starts out very little. When I first heard about Jesus, I certainly believed that he was who he was and honored him from the time I can remember five, six years old. But I never understood the grace gospel. I was always under a legalistic type of religion where I had to do this and had to do that and had to do this. And then I wound up with the Baltimore Colts in 1963.

Speaker 1:

And one of the fellows that I roomed with in training camp not that year but the next year he had a Bible and I never, we, never, we had a Bible in the house, but it was a big one that nobody read and just sat there. It was, I think, like most of the family Bibles you know, especially the kind of church I was in. The Bible wasn't the main feature of any of our teachings or studies. So I, somewhere in there, I had a. We were at a camp in Virginia and another fellow came along named Carol Dale. He played with the Green Bay Packers and he carried his Bible with him. I was, I don't know. I went to his room, he had a Bible and I think I was rooming with him. Yeah, I was rooming with him. He had a Bible and he was reading it and I thought, you know, there's something to this, I guess because both these guys were different, something to this, I guess because both these guys were different. And I think it was the impression I had that in pro athletics you have a lot of the world, so to speak, as opposed to the spectrum, and so there's a contrast to these two guys.

Speaker 1:

And we got into a prayer circle at this camp. It was a camp for young kids and we went downstairs in a prayer circle to pray and it was coming around the circle circle to pray and it was coming around the circle coming and I knew it was coming to me and I had never prayed in a group out loud. I'd kind of always had a very private prayer life, private spiritual life. But my turn came and I I'm sure I said something, I don't remember what, but I, just after it was over, I was very convicted that I really didn't understand that as well. I needed to understand more of a relationship with God on a personal level rather than just kind of I can't explain even the word but it was different. So I went to the room that night with Carol and talked to him at length until I don't know. It was maybe 2 o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 1:

So I had a problem with my wife, was pregnant with our second child and our first child had German measles and the doctor recommended that we abort the child child. And we weren't going to do that and so we were going to have the baby and said, if he pray, he came healthy. Well, carol said I'll pray for you. And oh gosh, that that was something that you know. People say that and I don't know if they really mean it all the time.

Speaker 1:

And so I was traded from the Baltimore Colts to the New Orleans Saints that year and after the season, the Saints season was over right away, but Green Bay was already in the playoffs and I was back in Memphis, tennessee, where I was going to dental school in the offseason. And Carol called the house that week. I wasn't home. Peggy got the call. I don't think she even understood why. I don't know what that was about, but she told me he called and that he was praying and he wanted to. How the baby was? The baby was healthy in december, early december. But to think that he had prayed all that time wow, it was on his list or whatever how he did really impressive.

Speaker 1:

So that then the bible became a part of my, my quest to understand salvation. And trying to put these pieces together after the fact, ted, is hard to understand because I know it just kept happening. You know I get the verses in the Bible that were For by grace are you saved through faith, that's not of yourself. Ephesians, god, ephesians 2, 8, and 9. And in verse 1, john, you can know you have eternal life, as opposed to I was always. You know I will find out if I have eternal life after I die. It was kind of the way I was taught in the church I was in. So I think it was such a relief and a blessing to understand that you can have eternal life, know it on this earth. You're saved by grace, not faith, not what you do, what he did and to honor God with my life, which I try to do.

Speaker 2:

Amen, amen, amen. To that you certainly have. I mean, you've influenced just a great number of people. Even when I was a little kid I said I know that guy's a man of God, I know he's a man of God. And then I got to know you even better as an adult and, like I said, when I grow up I want to be like Gary Quazo man. That was like the goal.

Speaker 2:

And then I had the privilege of actually going to the Four Winds Farm and seeing you on your tractor and I was like this guy he's the Marlboro man. I mean, wow, I couldn't believe it, man. I was so amazed because here you are on your tractor and you were like I don't, I would have thought if I didn't know, I would have thought you were in your thirties at the time. I'm like this guy's unstoppable. I don't know where he gets the energy from. Amen, I, you know, I say Maranatha every day. Lord, please, please, come back. You know that's a great story how the Lord was working in your life and how he used people that were close to you, yes, and the way they lived, you know, was just their testimony of their faith, was how they were.

Speaker 1:

They were just men. Their whole value system was spiritually oriented, as opposed to the worldly. It's what the Bible talks about. You're not of the world, but of the spirit To have heavenly visions of why we're here and what we need to do with it.

Speaker 2:

And you could see it just night and day difference. I mean you played with the—weren't the Purple People leaders on your team?

Speaker 1:

You were on their team Vikings? Yeah, I was.

Speaker 1:

You were with the vikings, you, you were, uh, with the the colts, too right with the the colts started with the colts, ted and uh was backed up, john unitas for four years, and then I went to one year with the saints and expansion, and then back to the vikings in the uh trade. Uh was there four years. Uh started two of them and uh, we won our division for four years and we had a great defensive team too. You know, we had the, like you say, the purple people guys. Yeah, ellen marshall, let's see it was uh page ellen marshall and larson.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, quite a, quite a really good player.

Speaker 2:

Yeah those guys yeah, that that's uh, that's next level, but it but, but. The amazing thing that sticks out is how you ended up drawing closer to the Lord in the midst of playing at the highest levels. There I still have your baseball card. It's a football card, but it's interesting. On that card you're getting sacked or you're getting pummeled. Want to explain that? You know the card, the FCA card I'm talking about.

Speaker 1:

That's the testimony card that I made. Yeah, it was kind of just I thought the word sacked. I was in a I don't know one time God impressed upon me that I needed to have a testimony card. Just I give them out. Now I have a new one.

Speaker 1:

Now it's a little I'm not quite getting knocked over like that, but the I was getting knocked hit by somebody and I was going and I titled it sacked and it was just the idea that life is about you know when you, when you get down, where you turn, you know getting up and you know get up again and it's only God uses everything that. I've had some moments where you've been beat. Your playoff game we got beat by the 49ers and I was really discouraged. But that's sports, I think. Looking back, I think I could handle a lot better now with the brain I have now than I did then.

Speaker 1:

I was in dental and orthodox school in the offseason and these guys today they train year-round, which I would have loved to have done that because I think physically it was a better way to play, but in my day and era we didn't make anywhere near the money these guys make. I mean, I signed, I was drafted. I was traded for two number one draft picks, which you could imagine. What I would have gotten in today's salary, oh man. But I think I signed with the Vikings for vikings for like 65 000. I mean it sounds crazy like the. I think the ball boys the ball boys probably get better money, you know, yeah, but it was a lot then. Yeah, of course it was a lot more in terms of spendable money, but it just was so different uh in terms of world yeah, the millions and all that stuff.

Speaker 1:

For you know, quarterbacks is just I don't know it's probably a good. Quarterbacks is just I don't know it's probably a good thing. I never did because I don't think I would have got a dental school. My life would have been different. Right, I don't know about handling that much money at that young age. This NIL stuff with high school players and college players now is a little dangerous. To get these kids a whole bunch of money before they've done life much, it can really kill their incentive. Plus, the loyalty to a team is just forget about it now it's gone.

Speaker 1:

It's gone, totally gone.

Speaker 2:

I remember my uncle told me that and I almost didn't believe him. He told me this in the early 80s, late 70s maybe. He said you know a lot of the NFL players. They'll have like a job in the offseason, oh yeah.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:

Most of them. That's amazing. Like the thought of that today I can't imagine, because you have backups of backups that are making all kinds of money you know, making a decent living.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

It was a different game. I venture to say it was probably a more violent game. It was. You know, you had real men playing the purple people eaters. I mean, come on, I'm not knocking today's players, but the era that you came up in, it just seems so much harder.

Speaker 1:

Well, I think another thing is kind of you know, as you watch and you look back, you remember a guy would score a touchdown and hand the ball to the ref. You don't act like you've been there before. All the celebrating and stuff that's going on, it takes away. I think from here's a bad example. I don't know, I don't like it, to tell you the truth. I'd probably be a part of it if I was there then, but I don't think it's a good thing.

Speaker 1:

First they ruled it out. Remember in college I think they had ruled it out and and then, but then they started. You know, I don't, can't imagine during the week they, if we score, we'll get down and we'll pretend we're rowing or something. I I don't know how did they do that, but grant was a coach of mine in minnesota man, he would have never put up with that stuff, I don't think. Or Don Shuler was my, and then Lombardi and I was in that era. They had control to where stuff like that would never have happened. But as soon as I guess we had the sack dance kind of stuff started I guess it was Gastineau in.

Speaker 2:

New York, yeah, yeah, the New York Sack Exchange. That was the 82, 83, I think.

Speaker 1:

That started the celebrating stuff. I don't know, it got out of hand, I think, but it's what it is.

Speaker 2:

Wait, let me think those that are listening probably will. I can feel them sending an email. You had Billy White Shoes Johnson before that, remember? So Billy White Shoes Johnson, he did that funny dance in the end zone, but it was few and far between. It wasn't like it is today Every game, every player doing something.

Speaker 1:

It's very like look at me kind of stuff which is probably not the healthiest thing for kids.

Speaker 2:

I think you said it, though I guess I don't know if it's to blame free agency, but if you the the loyalty to the team, it doesn't seem to you, don't see, guys?

Speaker 1:

coaches don't have it either.

Speaker 2:

Coaches lose and I don't know. I don't know where that comes from. But the team aspect and the loyalty to the team, I don't know, it just seems like there's this flashiness. Look at me, look at me, look at me and you know you have the well to the team. I don't know, it just seems like there's this flashiness. Look at me, look at me, look at me and you know you have the Well and the following.

Speaker 1:

You know, the following, the internet stuff, how many followers you get, and that's really key to the NIL stuff. You know there's a special. I watched on LSU how these guys get the most followers. Then they get the most money on NIL because then they get the most advertising. Advertising and I gosh, it was like I don't know how many thousands of the young girl that's a gymnast in LSU. She's made a fortune just because of her following. You know, I mean that's, and so I think the dancing around stuff is to to say, here, look at me and so I can get more following you. So unhealthy sports kind of thing. Right, being old, being old. It sounds like it's bitterness, but I don't think so. I think it takes away from the game.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I will defer to your assessment of that. So you have been on the Lord's team as long as I've known. You Tell me about Fellowship of Christian Athletes, because we plan to get Harry on here at some point. Oh good, but tell me, how did you get involved with that?

Speaker 1:

it started with um, I think raymond might have gotten me, uh, invited to an fca camp in colorado. I don't know how I got out there, but I was there and, uh, you know, the gospel was added clearly. Uh, and it's still at the time I was thinking, why did they talk about? Why you just go to church, you know, it was like, and I kind of struggled through why everybody was so public about their faith, which I think I think people that watch this, if you know, it's very I, I not that I didn't believe, it's just that I didn't know if I, you know, talking about it and then not understanding grace either. At that time I was very legalistic about had to make every, you know, every event that the church told me to do. But then I, I got involved with FCA.

Speaker 1:

Then I came back to New Jersey in 1973 to start my orthodontic practice. A pastor from I had signed a football card for a kid in my office and he showed it to a pastor, a local pastor, and he came into my office Is there anything you would like to do? I said, well, I've got all this FCA stuff in this drawer. I've been really busy starting my practice, learning, but I really would like to get the FCA started in New Jersey. So we got the national office contacted and a fellow named Winn Lembright who just passed away. I went to his funeral a couple months ago. He came out and we brought in Bruce Kozman, who you know, ted. He was our first FCA director.

Speaker 2:

Oh, wow.

Speaker 1:

Really.

Speaker 2:

Started the.

Speaker 1:

FCA there. That was right around, you know, early 70s, wow, I'm not sure of the exact dates, but I do remember doing that pretty early in my dental career and Bruce did a great job. We just couldn't raise money very well. It was a real problem.

Speaker 2:

And so we actually. That's a problem with many ministries.

Speaker 1:

Okay, we went into this thing called the red zone and they took away our you know our, whatever they have, you know what you know, as far as you're connected to the national. They said another fell out, bob Atkins, and he was there for a while and then Harry became uh, I talked to Harry somewhere in there where Bob was kind of wavering and going to somewhere else, and we got Harry started and it's a story. After that he's got about 150 chapters, I think in high school in New Jersey and he's just a real man of God that does a wonderful job.

Speaker 2:

So it's blossomed in New Jersey really, yeah, and it's amazing it started's blossomed in New Jersey, really yeah, and it's amazing it started right there in your dentist office. Basically, I mean.

Speaker 1:

It did, it did yeah.

Speaker 2:

And look you, look at the lives touch I've actually had the privilege of doing a camp with, with Bruce and Vinnie Whitehead and and Harry Right, you know Harry was one, he directed it. But you know, all these guys are guys that I've I've looked up to and I'm so grateful to have had them in my life. I wish, I wish I would have had you guys in my life when I was a teenager. I would have had you guys in my life when I was a teenager. It would have saved me a whole world of extracurricular hurt and nonsense. But there are many young people that have been impacted there, sure is. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Through the ministry of Fellowship of Grand Athletes. I'm down here in Florida now and we've just got a wonderful ministry going here, fca-wise in Collier County, multiple high schools. We got a director down here, charlie Weatherby, who coached the Naval Academy, yeah, and he's our full-time director and he's one of my closest friends and we have got this since he got here. He has. I don't know how many chapters we've increased, but I'll just give you a financial increase. We went from about $150,000 to over a million dollars in budget. Amen. Banquet-wise, we've had everybody here to speak Mr Dow, let's see Dabo and Tebow and her cousins.

Speaker 2:

Our banquets have been just great Well let me know when you're going to have another one. I'm going to see if I can get a ticket to that.

Speaker 1:

You got one coming up with Tony Dungy in Jersey.

Speaker 2:

Oh well, see, I'm not in Jersey anymore, but Tony Dungy is going to be at this one this year.

Speaker 1:

In Jersey. Yes, oh wow, we had Tony here also.

Speaker 2:

Oh wow, we had Tony here also. Oh my goodness, that's amazing.

Speaker 1:

We draw about 700 people Tony Dungy or anybody. We've got some 700 or 600. We draw a lot of people to our banquets. Oh, that's fantastic.

Speaker 2:

What a blessing. I mean. So much good has come from that ministry. If I was to ask you and this is probably a tough question to get around can you think of what might be your top couple or top ministry experience? If I said, tell me something that really impacted you, top of your list? I'll give you an example Me, I went into the prison and we did one of our plays in the prison and at the end of the play the genesis joe play what you still need to see we got to find a way to do that for you. The genesis joe play and and a bunch of the inmates were, they gave their life to the lord right at the end of it and that was, that was a highlight of ministry for me. Do you have anything that you can think of?

Speaker 1:

that was just special and really uh well, I the hardest, and you know, I imagine you might remember, after my son was killed in 1990, and I was involved in a drug kind of thing and the whole thing. And I wound up getting a bunch of letters that he had written to me in his room at the college, where he never mailed them to me and after the funeral I had prayed the night I had to go down to identify his body in Florida that God would use his life in some way and I didn't understand how I even prayed that. I just believe the Spirit led me to think that I just wanted to be reassured that he was a Christian and reassured that God would use his life, because I was devastated. From that point on I spoke probably for the next seven or eight years in the high schools in New Jersey all over everywhere, sharing the gospel everywhere, because I had no other answers for them about drugs. But they wanted me to come to talk about the drugs thing. So they would invite me for that but they didn't want to hear about the gospel. But I didn't want to, I wouldn't go, they would give a disclaimer.

Speaker 1:

But then that came to an end around 2000 when I went back-to-back schools, schools, and they were a junior high and a senior high and they canceled me out. If I remember exactly, they canceled me out to senior high. They just didn't want you. You know, mentioning Jesus in a public school was rather, really difficult in 1993, 4, 5 and all that. Not that it's any easier now, but so that was, that, would say, would be the highlights of my ministry life. And then pretty much, you know, I'd talk with the kids afterwards, just stay and talk to them without any of the teachers there, and I really opened my eyes to what was going on in this world with kids. And you know, nowadays it's probably worse because of the Internet, but God used that in my life for the crisis.

Speaker 1:

Everything about it was was so bad, but I it made me so sad sometimes when I was speaking about it in fact I'm speaking about a week and a half at a church down here, um, about you know simpler, you know basically my testimony, but really what god has used that in my life to truly change. And and then Bruce, when Bruce came back to start a church, we started a church in Four Winds. Four Winds, right, ted. I was on the phone with Bruce. He was in ministry school in California with Chuck Smith Because Bruce was there as an SCA guy and we were really close friends. And I was talking to him because I'd been down to Charlottesville, virginia, to a PCA church. That was really just a really great place for me to be to see how a church was really reaching kids. And I asked Bruce about would he ever come back and start a church in Jersey? I was a little frustrated with the way the churches had been that I'd been to, even though I'm sure many people came to the Lord through them, but I just thought it wasn't. I don't know I liked when then the Calvary Chapel movement I didn't know anything about. Matter of fact, Greg Lurie's father, oscar, was a friend of mine. He was a lawyer and he actually helped us with SCA and he told me I met him outside my office one day and he said you know, my son led me to the Lord and I didn't know who Greg Lurie was. Wow, that was before I even ever heard of Calvary Chapel.

Speaker 1:

And so then, when Bruce came back, he put us through a thing called Shepherd School. You know, we started the church and we had two years of Shepherd School, which enabled us to, you know, get a pastorate. You know, we were became pastors and had ministry, uh, and it was a great time of studying the bible. I had never studied the bible. I really had. I didn't know it very well, I knew some, I knew this and that, but we uh, chuck smith has tapes on the entire bible, yeah, and we had to listen to them and you know, verse by verse, um, and so it was just I. I was really impressed with the calvary chapel movement. You know, it's really affected a lot of a lot of America non-denominational churches, and my son, jeff, as you know, is a Calvary pastor. Yeah, he works with Joel Rosenberg over in Israel and he's in England too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but if you're talking about the highlight moments. I would think that was the highlights, yeah amen, Amen, Amen.

Speaker 2:

Mr Gary Quaso, hey, we're going to continue this as we go on and talk a little bit more. We're going to continue this next week if the Lord tarries. So until next time, may the Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. May the Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace. Come on.

Speaker 3:

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