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Ep 92: Unpacking Rapture Theology and Israel's Prophetic Future (Part 1)
"Have you ever wondered how current geopolitical events potentially connect to biblical prophecies? Pastor John Durante discusses pre-tribulation rapture theology, biblical prophecy, the church’s role, and Israel's future."
John Durante, Senior Pastor of Jersey Shore Calvary Chapel, joins us today as our conversation navigates the intricate beliefs surrounding pre-tribulation rapture theology, questioning the timing and role of the church amid biblical prophecy. Using scriptures from Hebrews and Ephesians, we examine the church's representation of Jesus and the misconceptions about the Great Tribulation. Then, we turn our attention to the prophetic future of Israel, considering how present-day geopolitical events might connect to the prophecies of Ezekiel 38 and 39. This episode promises a thoughtful exploration of scripture, encouraging listeners to reflect on faith, prophecy, and the world around us with an insightful heart.
John Durante, Senior Pastor
Jersey Shore Calvary Chapel
https://www.jscalvary.com/
Things Above Radio
https://www.thingsaboveradio.com/
Bridge Bible Talk - Listen Live: Pastor John Durante Guests twice this coming week beginning this Monday 3-4 PM (EST.)
https://www.bridgebibletalklive.com/
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Lord you know. Hey guys, you are now listening to Plays on Word Radio.
Speaker 2:It's the best.
Speaker 1:Jesus, You're the only name, You're the only thing, You're the only thing. How does prayer enable us to experience God's presence in our daily lives? In this episode, we explore the practice of enduring prayer, recognizing God's presence, sharing faith stories, all while embracing His guidance. Hello and welcome to Plays on Word Radio, where we discuss, analyze work and play on the Word of God. Thank you for joining us on this excursion. Today. Let's join Pastor Teddy, also known as Fred David Kenny Jr, the founder of Plays on Word Theater, as he does a deep dive into the Word of God. Oh, there's.
Speaker 3:John. Ah, there's John, oh, there's John.
Speaker 2:Ah, there's John, I think.
Speaker 3:John's connecting. There you go, brother.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Can now hear us me. I hear you, bro, All right man. How are you, man Better?
Speaker 1:than I deserve.
Speaker 2:Amen to that Amen. So yeah, we'll get into this. Let me just pray real quick. Lord, I just want to pray over this recording and just pray your will be done and that you'd go before us In Jesus' name amen.
Speaker 3:Thank you, thank you, lord amen. Brother, how come my my screen? I know why my screen's not working. There you go, dude. Not that you want to see any of that horrible stuff, but there you go all good man rcbc.
Speaker 2:What's rcbc?
Speaker 3:that would be redemption community biker church in Daytona Beach Florida.
Speaker 2:Wow, nice.
Speaker 1:That's awesome.
Speaker 2:I need to send you this thing. Man, Did I send you my next bike? I don't think I sent it to you. It's like a cafe. It's a cafe racer style, this custom shop man, they're making some gnarly gnarly bikes. I just want to get your thoughts on it, see what you think. I sent it to Carmine. He liked it. I sent it to my brother Ben. He loved it. He was like yeah man, that's what's up.
Speaker 3:Well, it's art, but that's not my style, bro. I don't want to go fast around corners. I go fast enough around corners on my Harley, so I'm deal with that you've been riding a lot lately yeah, man absolutely getting in the way throttle therapy brother throttle therapy I know about, I know all about it.
Speaker 2:Man, I, uh boy, I was jonesing the other day. I was like I gotta get back on, I gotta get back in the wind and, uh, it was the first time in a long time I was really getting that itch. I was like I gotta get back in the wind. Man, this is not, this isn't especially down here, because it was, it wasn't hot, it was, it was just perfect.
Speaker 3:It was like September weather and you got roads, man, you got some good roads. Down. There too, you can get out in the woods.
Speaker 2:Oh, dude, it's just. I had to go to Jacksonville yesterday and I missed my turn off the main highway, Like, so I took the next exit. That took me through, that took me through america. Man, I was like I look at this, I'm riding through america, right, this is amazing. I went from farmland to forest. It was just.
Speaker 2:I was just like, wow, north carolina's all right north north kakalaki yeah, so stuff for the alligators, so right, yeah, and there was one in my backyard, I think. I said I think I sent you a picture. I I gotta tell you I miss you, bro. I do miss you too, man. I miss being able to be like hey, can we get a cup of coffee? I need to bounce something, but it's all good, the Lord has us on mission, I'm sure. Amen. The brothers missed each other when they went out on trips, so we want to welcome John Durante, the senior pastor of Jersey Shore Calvary Chapel in.
Speaker 1:New Jersey.
Speaker 2:My dear brother in the Lord, and we have been at our posts for a while now and he also is the I guess you would say the host of Things Above Radio which you can find on the Bridge FM, the Bridge FM, and he also is part of what's the question and answer. I'm blanking right now With Lloyd, with Lloyd.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you, brother. I mean it's great to see you too. So to answer your question, I'm a guest occasionally that's right On a call-in question and answer nationwide program called Bridge Bible Talk. That's it, man.
Speaker 2:I drew a blank man. That's been happening to me lately too. I don't know what's going on.
Speaker 3:dude, it's called old age brother.
Speaker 2:Maybe I was in the middle of a sermon and I had something it wasn't in my notes and I was like, oh yeah, this makes sense. And I started to go down this path and I'm like, oh wait, and it totally. I don't know if the lord was laughing, but I totally totally lost, like where I was trying to draw this, the, the uh, the information from, and I said, well, I have to get back to you on that and it's kind of funny because I, um, my cousin he's, he's, um, you know, he's a long time, a long time professor, college professor, and he, that was the first thing he jumped on when he heard the message.
Speaker 2:He jumped on that and, uh, he was like stay on your notes, man, don't go off your notes. And he was giving me some solid sound advice, but then I was listening to a Joe Foch message. Recently I was listening to something and Joe did the same thing.
Speaker 1:He did the same thing I did.
Speaker 2:So it actually I felt so much better because I was in the dumps. I'm like, oh man, I maybe I've got dementia or something and joe did the same thing.
Speaker 3:I was like, oh okay, all right it happens over time, brother, you you just get a feel for it, like I. You get a feel you find your way back. I mean, you walk down that path, you go. Where was I again? You're like I knew there was a point for me going on this rabbit trail.
Speaker 3:But yeah, yeah yeah, so Not to get too far away from. I know we got some important stuff to discuss. I'm really excited about that. But the Bridge Bible Talk thing I'm going to be on twice this coming week and what's cool is that this coming Monday from three to four, it's going to be broadcast live from Jersey Shore Calvin Chapel here in Point Pleasant Beach, so our congregation is going to get to come out and sit and watch it and it'll be live across the country. Yeah, it'll be good stuff.
Speaker 2:Fantastic. We will put a link to that in the show notes here. You guys can check that out and I absolutely would advise checking it out, taking a listen to it. The people call in and they ask questions that many people think about and never, really never think that to really ask them. These guys get asked those questions and they find biblical answers, uh, which is fantastic and so all right, 10 seconds.
Speaker 3:I'm asking for 10 seconds for the microphone can I have it go ahead?
Speaker 3:all right, uh, a long time fan of my brother, uh, ted and his wife think they're. They're amazing. People love them very much. Miss them having them up here, uh, but love this program that he does, uh, watch the whole thing develop over time and see how the lord is using that and uh, so, so plays on word, just um good stuff and uh, you know like subscribe whatever you got to do, but make sure that you listen. God's using these, these two, and blessed to know them, be friends with them. So there's my, there's my 10 seconds.
Speaker 2:Thank you, brother, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you were you, you were early early on supporter of what we were attempting to do and what we felt like the Lord was putting on our heart. You were like right there, man. So um much appreciation to that. So the the reason I reached out to you and for those of you that don't know, uh, john is the. I think he's the first. He's the first repeat interviewee or interview. Yeah, I don't know what you call it, he's the first repeat interviewee or interview. Yeah, I don't know what you call it, he's the first repeat person on the Plays on Word. Let me say it right Plays on Word radio program. We interviewed John for episode 34. And it was fantastic and we were both in Albania at the time and that was a great episode and we got terrific positive feedback. So many people were so blessed by that. I was like, wow, man, we need to have this guy back on again, and that was well over a year ago.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, john, thank you for being back on here. I have a few brothers that I can go to that I know have drilled down into what I'd like to talk about, and you're one of them, and we won't have time to get down to a granular level. I've noticed that there is a lot of confusion among believers in the body of Christ about the end times and how things look, how you know what, what is, what is Bible prophecy saying about what's coming up, what is supposed to come up? And I give you an example I had a dear brother of mine recently in a message, brother of mine recently in a message I sent him. I was, we were in um, second first thessalonians, and I explained, I was explaining, I said there's nothing left on the on the calendar to happen prophetically. I'm waiting for the trumpet. You know I'm waiting for, I'm waiting, man, that's, that's next in line. There's really israel's back in the land where, I mean, the next thing happened is the harpazo man. We're gonna get caught up.
Speaker 2:And uh, and my dear brother, he said, oh, you know, no, you know you, uh, you gotta have the two witnesses are gotta come net first. And and I said, well, not from a pre-wrath rapture perspective, a pre pre-tribulation perspective, and you have always been one of the guys that was very adamant about that. The body of christ is not subject to the wrath of god, which is what the great tribulation is. The earth right now is in tribulation from just the fall, but that's not the same as the wrath of God, tribulation. Now can we just talk about just this whole timeline. And then your family member of mine, very close to me, she said you, calvary Chapel guys, and you and you're raptured. All that I want to say she's, she's. I want to call her post-millennial and she's. If the rapture happens, she, she would be, she'd be surprised, she'd be happy, but be surprised.
Speaker 3:So isn't that often the case with people who, uh, don't see the rapture in scripture? And they, they, uh, you know, I, I get frustrated because they want to bog me down in debates over wooden literalistic type things. And it's as though and I don't want to assume it, but it's as though they refuse to accept or to see it and they're so stubborn in their desire to be right that they won't even consider the possibility that they could be wrong. And that's fine, you know, because it takes a fraction of a second to go from earth to heaven. So you know a moment of twinkling of an eye and won't be time to explain it, but they'll be happy to receive it. So it's good, yeah, but yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.
Speaker 3:There is a lot of confusion, no-transcript, and that's where this discussion often goes. They get into the book of Revelation and they go hey, well, this isn't actually wrath for sin, and it's not like you're really experiencing it or you're not being punished. You're just here when it's happening and you know, listen, it just doesn't work that way, man. It's God's either pouring out wrath or he's not. And clearly, when you start seeing the scrolls, the seals on the scroll get open at a certain point and you have to pick somewhere along that scroll which seal and what's wrath and what's not. It gets very, very confusing for people.
Speaker 3:But I will say this that in my latest teachings on these subjects, going through and specifically teaching through the book of Romans, the Lord sort of showed me something. And again, none of these things are like nails in the coffin, you know. End the debate. We're right, they're wrong kind of things, they're just observations, right, but if they all sort of lend themselves credibly to a particular perspective, then you just say, okay, well, my view on that perspective is only strengthening. For example, we see in Hebrews, chapter 1, verses 1 and 2, that there's different times throughout history that God communicates through humanity. And in former times it says there in Hebrews 1, god spoke to the fathers through the prophets and these days, outlining a distinction, has spoken to us through, and it says their son through son, through the person of the, the son right now. So what that's saying is in and I I'm going to use this word, it's a biblical word dispensation, the dispensation in which we live.
Speaker 3:God speaks through to the world through jesus yeah and the reason why this this has a direct connection to eschatology and rapture theology is because that God always wants to communicate to the world and always, has always maintained a line of communication, but in these days, specifically, it's through Jesus. And so who in the world, what group of people in the world today, represent Jesus? Well, it's the church. It's clearly the church has chosen, and you start reading ephesians and you realize that god predestined the church to be his representation during this dispensation. Well, if it was in the past, before jesus, if it was through israel, if it was to the fathers, through the prophets, if it was through israel to the world and that's what he's saying in Hebrews 1, is it used to be that the world learned about God through the nation of Israel? Well, why now is it the church? What happened? Well, it's clear.
Speaker 3:You see the rejection of Jesus, a direct verse or verses that talk about the restoration of israel as representation, and we see 12 000 of each of the tribes, a total of 144 000, looking upon him, whom they've pierced jesus himself, that's right coming to coming to faith in jesus christ, and they are restored as the representation of God's voice or communication to the world during the time of the tribulation. And so you say to yourself well, so, god transitioned from Israel to the church and he's going to transition from the church back to Israel. Well, gee, what does that mean for the church? Well, it means that the church is no longer necessary, and probably not even here. Again, these are just observations that come up as you study scripture, right, and you say to yourself well, this makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think when you look at Revelation it's all church in the first three chapters. Man, then he says come up here, then you don't hear about the church. Man, you don't hear about the church until Revelation 19, the marriage supper of the Lamb. You know, you do not hear about the church. And so I had another brother tell me this week.
Speaker 1:He said you know, he asked me a question.
Speaker 2:He said you know, are we in the?
Speaker 1:Great Tribulation aren't we.
Speaker 2:He was very emphatic about it, that we are, you know, basically stating that we are in the Tribulation, I said well, the church unless I missed something, the church is still here and the church isn't subject, we're not.
Speaker 2:1 Thessalonians, 5ians, 5, we are not appointed to wrath. And one thing I think we can bank on is that God's not going to contradict His own word, he's not going to void His own word, void his own word. And so if the church is subject to the wrath of God, then the penalty that Christ paid wasn't enough. Is that what you're telling? That's what they're telling me? Is that it wasn't enough? And then the other example I used. I said listen, man, if I am at a wedding banquet with my wife, I'm not trying to let anybody, no one's going to hurt my wife at all, no one, it's not happening, especially if I paid whatever debt she owed, whatever penalty she owed. You know, and I make that, I try to make that case, but then the more intellectual people from the post-tribulational side.
Speaker 2:You know, those guys or the, I don't even want to get the post-millennial side. Even you could go that far if you wanted to. They, you know, I don't know, I just I have a hard time Listen is the rapture fantastical. Absolutely. It sounds fantastical, but so is an iron ax head floating in the water man.
Speaker 3:That's fantastical. Everything about God's fantastical.
Speaker 2:Everything about God's fantastical, so, and the thing is, it's not like it's made up. Oh you people, you, you're John Nelson Darby people, that's what? Yeah, no, hold on, wait a second. What does it say? It says we will be caught up, and if you look at where that word is used, harpazo the way it's used in the New Testament is a grabbing, a snatching, a taking, a catching away. That is, it's over and over.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:So you're expecting me to use a different, a different you know.
Speaker 1:Oh so God's gonna catch away the church?
Speaker 2:I don't know any thoughts on that?
Speaker 3:yeah, so well, you know, obviously, the the other side would say this is the falling away of the church. It's not the taking away the church, but the church falling away from faith. And and you know, that's one possible explanation, because that word, harpazo, is used both positively and negatively throughout the New Testament. But again, you made an allusion that we're not appointed to wrath, and so for us to enter into that wrath and I mentioned Romans 5, you mentioned Thessalonians. I'm going to read from Romans 5, 8. But God demonstrated his own love toward us and that while we were still sinners, christ died for us Now, verse 9. Much more than having now been justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Thank you, for if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through death of his son, much more having been reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Speaker 3:We're not going to be here, not because we're special, but because the blood of christ covers us amen and and so, uh, that's god's choice, it's we, you know, we can argue about what we think it means and all that stuff, but for god, you know to, to have us here during that time, you know it's just. To me it doesn't make any sense. Why would God do that when we're covered in the blood? Here's another view. So what is the purpose of the tribulation? Well, you see, two primary things happen during the tribulation that sort of reveal the purpose of the tribulation.
Speaker 3:There's only two identifying marks that can be received and during the tribulation, ultimately everyone is forced to choose between one of two sides. You either get the mark of the beast, which becomes useful to the enemy because it's a way of forcing you to reject Jesus Christ. And if you read Revelation 13, it's clear that when you receive the mark of the beast, it's not by accident. You have to literally be rejecting Jesus and Jesus's representation of authority over your life in favor of what the Antichrist and the system that's been set up is offering you, and with it comes sustenance for your life, immediate worldly stuff, food, housing, whatever, buying, trading, selling, being part of the economy.
Speaker 3:So that's the mark of the beast. That's there. But there's also another distinction that can be put, a name that can be put upon you, and it's the name of the lamb or the mark of the lamb. And so, literally, the tribulation is about dividing people into one of two groups, forcing people to make a decision You're either going to be a follower of Jesus Christ, and we know that during the tribulation we see it throughout those chapters Many people get saved during the tribulation. Many people do, and they suffer and they're martyred for it.
Speaker 2:Tribulation saves.
Speaker 3:Amen. And so if the tribulation is primarily about, you know, obviously, fulfilling the seven, the list of seven things in Daniel 9, and in doing so forcing everyone into one of two camps and making those final distinctions, if that's what it's about, why would the church be there? We already have received the mark of Christ. We are followers, we made our decision Right, followers, we made our decision right, so what does it? Again, it doesn't make any sense for us to go into the tribulation if that part of the tribulation has already been settled in our, in our lives. Just another observation, accumulation of facts that you observations that lend themselves to a storyline that seems consistent throughout the scriptures. I think that's the story of the pre or early tribulation, if you want to call it that. I don't really love. I'm not in love with that phrase pre-tribulation. And the reason? Because, if you parse out those words, it means before tribulation.
Speaker 3:And I think that, all of a sudden, what you're doing is you're putting one thing before another, which I've always looked at it, as this is all part of one event called the day of the Lord.
Speaker 3:It's loosely referred to throughout the New Testament as the day of the Lord, even in the Old Testament, the day of the Lord is not a little day, it's a seven-year period of time.
Speaker 3:In my opinion, that's what he's talking about. This is the day when the Lord has his day. He's bringing about or bringing to pass these things, passing from one dispensation to another. And so if this is all part of the same thing the day of the Lord then one part of it takes a fraction of a second. The other part takes seven years, as is clearly outlined in Daniel and in Revelation. As is clearly outlined in Daniel and in Revelation. So if one takes a fraction of a second, it only needs to happen to fit our model somewhere at the beginning. And so if they're both part of the same event which is really to me, that fits with Scripture, they're both part of the same event the day of the Lord and one takes a fraction of a second, it could literally happen right at the very beginning of the tribulation and have it not conflict with our view.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's important, I think, also because by at least I feel the most, it's just the logical way things from a scriptural perspective, the way they flow it. I mean it's always good to look at the scripture and let the scripture dictate how you want to see things. And I'm sure that believers in the time of Christ, before Jesus was born, right before he was born, they weren't really sure exactly how things were going to play out completely. You know they didn't have. We can look back and see. But there I'm sure there were those that said, yeah, he's the Messiah is a king, he's a king coming. But then some, some guys were like wait, there's a servant coming too. How does that all mend this, this suffering guy? And I think, just going forward, how do you see the events going forward? We could back up to 1948 if you want, but I mean just like timeline-wise. What's the Scripture saying? How do you see this playing out?
Speaker 3:Well, great, great catch there, Great call. 1948, for me, is a defining moment in the history of the generations in which we now live and how. That the dry bones, ezekiel 37 becoming his flesh. And there is a movement and some, you know there's a movement to believe that these things are not fulfilled in the current nation of Israel, that this is not the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37, which clearly states what I love about Ezekiel 37 is it's in the book of Ezekiel.
Speaker 3:You see a lot of these pictures being painted that are very strange or odd and then require interpretation. But this one gives both the dream or the vision, but then gives the interpretation. There is no questioning what the interpretation is. It says this is the nation that should be dead, that for no legitimate reason, suddenly becomes alive again. This picture of a valley of dry bones and the bones starting to rattle and then beginning to rise, with sinew and flesh forming around them, something that had long been gone. All the things, all the signs of life had long been gone and now, all of a sudden, signs of life begin to appear and breath enters into them. And then for Ezekiel to give us the interpretation this is the nation of Israel becoming once again a nation and it's just mind-boggling to me that people would say that this group of people living in the land of Israel today, in 1948, then becoming a nation again, isn't the fulfillment.
Speaker 3:Recently we saw someone somewhat close to the ministry that you and I are part of but no longer part of it. He's kind of stepped outside with another ministry saying on his radio program that he doesn't believe it is and his rationale is that they don't have the Messiah in the land. But if you go back and read that prophecy, that comes later. That comes later. Just because the Messiah is not there yet doesn't mean that it's not the fulfillment and that's not a good use of scripture because it's dishonest. It's a way of giving yourself the permission to not support the Israel of today. It might make you uncomfortable to say, hey, I don't like what Israel is doing and they're evil, they're a capitalist and they're. You know they're. They're evil, they're a capitalist, they're this or that, they're colonists. There's there's over 50 Muslim countries, there's One.
Speaker 1:This program was made possible by the Plays on Word family of supporters. To find out more, check out our website at playsonwordorg.
Speaker 3:That's more evidence that we are living during the time that Ezekiel 37 is being fulfilled. What does that mean? With regard to your question, how do I feel about the timing? It means that we're living in the time that it's going to come to pass, that these things are going to happen. And how else do I know that? Well, if you go on to read Ezekiel 38, 39, and you start to put these pieces of these puzzles together. Well, if you go on to read Ezekiel 38, 39, and you start to put these pieces of these puzzles together, you're looking ahead to the formation of one day there being the new temple, the millennial temple, and all these things you say to yourself well, we have, the pieces of the puzzle come together so quickly.
Speaker 3:We have Turkey, we have Russia, we have Iran. No-transcript.
