Ep 57: Unveiling the Unseen Struggles Behind the Pulpit - A Journey Through Pastoral Burnout and Recovery (Part 1)
Feb 23, 2024
Pastor/ Artist Fred Kenney Jr.
"Have you ever noticed how a well-timed pause can supercharge your next act? That's exactly what we explore with our guests, Scott and Lynn Jackson from the Thrive Leadership Foundation, in our heartfelt conversation about the restorative healing of sabbaticals."
With our guests Scott and Lynn Jackson from the Thrive Leadership Foundation, we dive into the essence of emotional and spiritual well-being for those in the trenches of ministry, drawing parallels to the rejuvenating experience of a car fueling up. Joined by Katie Kenney, along with Fred Kenney, Jr., whose stirring performance of Genesis 'JOE' captivated pastors and ministry leaders, we dissect the power of authenticity and raw storytelling in capturing hearts.
As leaders, we're often so busy serving others that we forget to refill our own cups. This episode highlights the transformative effect that taking a step back can have on our personal and ministerial lives. Scott and Lynn share their pivotal journey from pastoral ministry to nurturing the weary souls of church leaders, establishing a network of fully-funded retreats specifically designed to rekindle passion and reframe perspectives. Their stories punctuate the necessity of these retreats, offering a behind-the-scenes look at the signs of burnout and how to combat it with grace.
We round off this enriching discussion with a candid look at setting personal boundaries and the sacred act of honoring the Sabbath. We confess our own struggles with carving out true rest one day a week, echoing a sentiment many can relate to. This episode isn't just a conversation; it's an invitation to re-examine the rhythms of our lives, to embrace the moral speed limits that keep us grounded, and to recognize the profound impact of rest on our ability to lead and serve with vitality. Join us as we share stories, laughter, and insights that promise to leave you feeling seen, understood, and ready to embrace the ebbs and flows of ministry life. Does any of today's podcast resonate with you? Let us know here: https://playsonword.dm.networkforgood.com/for
"Have you ever noticed how a well-timed pause can supercharge your next act? That's exactly what we explore with our guests, Scott and Lynn Jackson from the Thrive Leadership Foundation, in our heartfelt conversation about the restorative healing of sabbaticals."
With our guests Scott and Lynn Jackson from the Thrive Leadership Foundation, we dive into the essence of emotional and spiritual well-being for those in the trenches of ministry, drawing parallels to the rejuvenating experience of a car fueling up. Joined by Katie Kenney, along with Fred Kenney, Jr., whose stirring performance of Genesis 'JOE' captivated pastors and ministry leaders, we dissect the power of authenticity and raw storytelling in capturing hearts.
As leaders, we're often so busy serving others that we forget to refill our own cups. This episode highlights the transformative effect that taking a step back can have on our personal and ministerial lives. Scott and Lynn share their pivotal journey from pastoral ministry to nurturing the weary souls of church leaders, establishing a network of fully-funded retreats specifically designed to rekindle passion and reframe perspectives. Their stories punctuate the necessity of these retreats, offering a behind-the-scenes look at the signs of burnout and how to combat it with grace.
We round off this enriching discussion with a candid look at setting personal boundaries and the sacred act of honoring the Sabbath. We confess our own struggles with carving out true rest one day a week, echoing a sentiment many can relate to. This episode isn't just a conversation; it's an invitation to re-examine the rhythms of our lives, to embrace the moral speed limits that keep us grounded, and to recognize the profound impact of rest on our ability to lead and serve with vitality. Join us as we share stories, laughter, and insights that promise to leave you feeling seen, understood, and ready to embrace the ebbs and flows of ministry life. Does any of today's podcast resonate with you? Let us know here: https://playsonword.dm.networkforgood.com/for
I didn't know how bad I was Till I was given a sabbatical. The first few days of that sabbatical I actually thought I was having a nervous breakdown. I'm a pretty steady guy emotionally and my emotions bounced from high to low every hour. I literally came in and sat down on a stool in our kitchen in front of Lynn at our island and I just said what is happening to me and Lynn simply said you're okay, you're decompressing, and that was the beginning to find healing for me.
Speaker 4:
Hello and welcome to Play so Ward radio, where we discuss, analyze, work and play on the Word of God. Thank you for joining us on this excursion today. Let's join Pastor Teddy, also known as Fred.
Speaker 2:
David King Jr, the founder of.
Speaker 4:
Play so Ward.
Speaker 2:
Theatre as he does a deep dive into the Word of God. Very special couple, dear friends and family. Of art you could say the incredible Scott and Lynn Jackson from the Thrive Leadership Foundation.
Speaker 3:
Is that correct? That's correct, yes.
Speaker 2:
Well, and Katie Kenny is with us. Yes, the Katie Kenny. How are you guys doing?
Speaker 3:
We're doing good. It's been nice hanging out with you guys this week.
Speaker 5:
Yes, it was incredible to see you last night in person.
Speaker 3:
Oh yeah, good old Genesis Joe man, what a treat that was excellent.
Speaker 2:
Any thoughts, Because we met you guys last year at this and I believe Now let me just jump in.
Speaker 1:
This is America's Kessics Pastors and Leadership Ministry of Leadership.
Speaker 2:
Yes, Ministry of Leadership Conference Conference. So and that's where we met this power couple in the Lord. And then we had the opportunity to. They invited us out to your retreat that you do, and make sure that I don't forget we got to talk about that. The retreat, the refresh, I believe was instrumental. I know me personally being able to get through our December schedule Because we had a grueling schedule in December and the fact that we recharged in the middle I want to say it was October.
Speaker 2:
Yes, October and that was key because we went right back into Genesis Joe and from there we went right into Christmas Joe. It was our most grueling Christmas Joe season and I reflected back many times on the time spent with you guys and the keys, the tools that we learned.
Speaker 4:
But I don't want to spend a lot of time on that, yet First let me get your thoughts on what you saw.
Speaker 2:
as far as Genesis, joe, it was your first time seeing it and we gave you last year. You guys had a mug from what was it? The Pyramid Depot.
Speaker 3:
Pyramid Depot yeah, the Pyramid Depot. Mug and I promised you.
Speaker 2:
I said you'll have context when you see the play. You saw the play last night. Do you now have context?
Speaker 3:
Absolute context for Pyramid Depot. That was awesome. That was awesome. The way you work modern day things into your the Genesis Joe was, I thought, was just so creative, and so it helps people relate to what you were sharing, even though it's a story, that's an account that's so old and yet you made it very much alive for us. So that was awesome and you're passionate about what you do. To me, that was so amazing to see your passion for what you did and what you put together in order to communicate what Joseph was experiencing.
Speaker 5:
And I think just seeing that authentic emotion displayed the way that you do helped me to see Joseph as a real person. Yes, definitely so. Your passion, your authenticity, the way you throw yourself, you are that character for that moment and it just helped me walk alongside of Joseph for that moment. So it was very excellent.
Speaker 2:
You're a pastor how do you describe this to a pastor at a church? A leader, a ministry leader? Because we've found it difficult to explain what you guys saw last night, because what happens is a lot of times people say, oh, you got to see this one man play. And as soon as they say that, many of the pastors that they're speaking to automatically have a picture in their mind of what a one man play is Okay, but I believe the Holy Spirit is so involved in what we do. Even video of it doesn't really translate the electricity that was in the room because everybody was involved. You know what I mean. It was. There was a any thoughts on how about this? How we just playing that to our buddy, tim Womack? Tim is a pastor in Ohio that we love and we communicate with him every, or he communicates with us every Sunday morning, so that's why I brought him up. Sure.
Speaker 3:
That's an excellent question, because I wouldn't have understood it till I actually saw it being done. You know, there's part of just seeing it, experiencing it more. Not just seeing it, but experiencing it to where you really see the authenticity, the reality of who Joseph is. It's just not a Bible story, genesis Joe. It's just not Joseph, this guy in the book of Genesis somewhere. It's an authentic portrayal that makes it real life versus Bible characters.
Speaker 3:
And it's kind of like explaining our ministry to pastors. Sometimes it's hard to explain what we do to pastors and what a refreshed getaway is all about. We'll talk about that later, you said. But sometimes it's like, okay, that's nice, but you, who have experienced that talking to a couple other pastors here this week I saw you talking to them, for me to talk to them versus you talking to them you experienced what we're trying to do and you were able to communicate that in a much more authentic way than what I feel I can.
Speaker 1:
You know, I think, just like anything, a lot of it comes down to the testimony, because I had the same conversation with the pastor last night and he remembered speaking to us last year and he said honestly, katie, he said I didn't realize it was this, it was like this, you know. And I said that you know, don't apologize, because that happens a lot. Sometimes pastors are busy. All that's probably cute, skit or whatever, but it's when you see it and sometimes the most you know, the most authentic and effective testimony is like I saw it, you've just got to see it. And sometimes that's why it helps us when pastors do see it or other people do see it and they're able to talk to their inner circle because their inner circle trusts them. And sometimes it's just a matter of like.
Speaker 1:
I'm telling you the Bible, the scriptures. He's on point, you just got to book them.
Speaker 2:
I think that's why you guys can relate. We're talking to Scott and Lynn Jackson and that's why I think that's why you guys can relate, maybe more than other ministers here and other pastors here, because very much so it was the same type of experience. Your retreat was described to us. You know okay, and the first thing is okay, let me pull on what I know Okay, retreats, refreshed, okay, rejuvenate or whatever it gets yourself refreshed and back, and so you have got these preconceived notions. But it was so much different, better than the half wasn't even told. I appreciate the fact that you guys can appreciate the boat we're in because I can appreciate how do you explain it, and sure by me.
Speaker 2:
That's why I'm so enthusiastic telling all these if you have pastors like you need to check out this, you need to go on the, not just checking out, you need to go.
Speaker 1:
I think one of the things that I love too about your ministry, and one of the things that we have in common, is that we want to be used as a resource, and you guys that's what you're all about. So definitely tell us about your ministry and how you minister to others, and how did you guys end up?
Speaker 2:
where you are right now.
Speaker 5:
Following Jesus. Amen I know that sounds so simplistic, but really he ordered, just like you guys. He ordered our steps. We didn't have this preconceived notion of someday we're going to do this. God, just one step at a time, led us and unfolded it, yeah.
Speaker 3:
I mean, you know, we spent 22 years in the pastoral ministry at one church. Okay, all right, 10 as an associate pastor and then 12 as the lead pastor, senior pastor and I burned out. I got to the point where I never thought I'd preach another sermon. I was so toast, wow, I was that burned out and didn't quite understand it, but that's where I had gotten.
Speaker 3:
And you know, then the Lord moved us from the church. We weren't looking to leave, but the Lord moved us from the church very deliberately to a mission organization where we started taking churches on custom-made short-term mission trips. And in the process of doing that, I was talking to pastors like you, teddy, developing mission trips for individual churches that way. And when you would find out that I had been in a pastor, all of a sudden you would say to me hey, can we talk about some of the other things I'm struggling with?
Speaker 3:
And we began to have a ministry into the lives of people in ministry, in particular pastors and wives that we didn't even know was existing out there or needed out there, the way it's come about. And from that God led us to Thart Thrive Leadership Foundation, which ministers to those in ministry pastors and wives in particular, and truly reaching into their lives to help them truly be refreshed, renewed, restored and strengthened in their relationship with Jesus and their relationship with their spouse. Not about ministry, but it's about their intimacy with Christ, their closeness with Christ and their relationship with one another, with the spouse that God had given to them. And that's really where Thrive came about and where our heartbeat goes because of the desperate place that I had gotten when I was burned out.
Speaker 5:
When Scott was a senior pastor, he would try to form accountability groups, get pastors together and it was like pulling teeth. It was like pulling teeth but when we stepped out of the pastorate, pastors would come to him because he had been in that position before. He knows the terrain. He knows the rocks that we use, stub your toe on and that you fall over and you bleed on, and they just kept coming to him and the ministry really just unfolded on itself. We're a safe place. People say what do you do? And I say we have a lot of cups of coffee. We're just good listening ears and try to be available because we've been there.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, you guys are like. You're like EF Hutton. For those of you millennials, that don't know EF. Hutton.
Speaker 4:
Don't be a link. You need to just go.
Speaker 2:
yeah, don't be a link to the video, you just need to Google it. But they are like EF. Hutton, when they speak, people listen.
Speaker 3:
I'm not sure about that, Teddy. I'm stretching it a little far.
Speaker 2:
Let me say this. I'll give you an analogy though we travel a lot of times, we drive A lot of the time we'll drive to locations, and when we go from New Jersey to North Carolina, we fill up our gas tank.
Speaker 2:
We fill it up before we leave. We fill it up and it would be absolutely ridiculous for us to expect to drive to North Carolina without having to fill up again. We're driving like a V8. And so how many pastors do you know are past that empty light coming on? The empty light on it? There's about fumes left in the gas tank, but they're still going and going. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 2:
It would be foolish to expect to make it to North Carolina when you're in Maryland and it's on empty and that's where we are, but when I found it, when I went to your refresh, my tank got filled back up and I was like, okay, okay, that was a great rest stop and now I'm ready to continue and, if you guys don't notice, I'm really trying to encourage you. If you are a pastor, say amen, let me hear you say amen.
Speaker 2:
If you listen to say amen, I say that really low and when I preach it, if you listen, say amen. And I get somebody saying amen I know, are you listening? Say amen, amen. Now you need to check this out and we're going to put a link in the show notes and everything else, but you definitely need to check out their ministry. So I didn't need to go on that rant, but I just feel passionate about that.
Speaker 5:
I just want to say too, scott and I live on support and our supporters give above and beyond because they believe in the pastor and the pastor's wives, and so they give above and beyond to cover the cost for the refresh, because we remember what it was like in the pastorate. Our money went to putting shoes on shoes on the feet, children and ourselves. We didn't have money to do things like that, and so our supporters, they give so that pastors and wives can get refreshed. There's people out there who believe in them and sometimes it doesn't feel like that especially today, I think but they are cheerleading you on and we are cheerleading you on.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, go into that a little more, because I think I don't know that we covered that, but we it was a scholarship for us, so there was no charge for us, and so talk a little bit about that maybe, and how often you do it.
Speaker 3:
Sure, I mean, that was one of our intents when we started. This is that we didn't charge for it because we know the struggle sometimes in ministry that there just isn't the extra money to go around to do something like this. And so what gets cut out? Well, sometimes the most important things get cut out because of the practical side of stuff. Yeah, our supporters, as Lynn said, go above and beyond. They give above and beyond special gifts towards scholarshiping pastors and wives to be able to come to a retreat like this.
Speaker 4:
And our refresh getaway.
Speaker 3:
You can speak to this, but we do it at a pretty nice place. We do special things for you. We give you some gifts, we our food is done well because we want you to feel loved well and we want you to truly get refreshed. And you know, we we do that because we believe you're so special and we want you to feel that specialness when you, when you come to a getaway. That we do, we do have a deposit for it and that's just basically to get you there. So I'll be honest about it. It's to get you there, because if, if there's nothing to connect you financially at the last minute, you can say, well, it's not going to work out, it's not convenient. We have spots that are already set aside, so we've got to cover the expense of those and we don't want people not showing up.
Speaker 5:
And I'd like to say, like when we were in the past or it, and people would say all there's a retreat you can go to and there's there's scholarships, you know, if you need them. Well, there's a little bit of embarrassment there. I'm not gonna sign it for a scholarship, but every pastor in life that come to our refresh is shipped. Every one of them is the financial model yes, that's exactly.
Speaker 2:
That's incredible now it's interesting though, can we talk about because this might be news to those of you guys listening as far, as pastors and pastors, wise and ministry leaders need to be ministered to as well, and many of them are just so burnt out then some of them don't even realize they're burnt out. What is what does that even look like? I mean what you know? What are the things? Maybe somebody listening right now is a burnt pastor might be burning.
Speaker 5:
Doesn't even know it does the telephone ring and you don't want to answer. Boy, that's old-school. No, your cell phone buzz.
Speaker 3:
I got to the point where I didn't want to answer the telephone. I didn't want to take a call. I didn't want to be around people and I like people, mm-hmm, but I didn't want to be around people. I'm a pastor, I'm supposed to be around people. Now I was still preaching sermons. 98% of the people in my church had no clue. I was struggling, no clue. Two people in the church knew it my wife and my head elder. The reality is, you don't know how bad you are and I would drift into isolation. I would hide in my office and I would distance myself from people because I was so exhausted and what I was doing and when he was home he was emotionally flat yeah, lynn described it as I was drowning at the end of her fingertips and she couldn't quite reach me.
Speaker 5:
I would go to him and I would be like do you like what you're doing? Are you happy? And he would say I love what I'm doing, I love preaching, I love teaching. But he didn't seem happy, he. He was just so emotionally flat and I went to him like several times and finally, it was like okay, get me behind me, satan, because maybe I'm reading my husband wrong, you know.
Speaker 1:
But then this other elder, he's picking up on it as well, so it's like a frog in a pot, you know yeah, I think as pastors, wives, we see a lot and we see our husbands up there and it's almost kind of like you guys are on autopilot. You are there, you are bringing the word and it's passionate and you're there, but we see the behind the scenes. We see when you might not. You know, I've watched my husband. He might not be, you know, completely burnt out, but he's on the brink and that hurts our hearts so much. On the other side of that, can I tell you so, my husband, a pastor and a worship leader, to be at your conference when you choked up and to watch my husband just worship he doesn't have to be up there, he's not in charge, he is just.
Speaker 1:
You had me at refresh, let me just tell you that I saw refresh and like we need to, we need to sign up for this, but to be able on that other side I see so much that he has gone through but to stand next to my husband and to watch him and to be able to worship with him because normally he's up there, you know, at the podium or on stage sure it was like such a blessing to see him release. And I think what happens is a lot of pastors maybe don't know where to go for this type of you know refresh or or you know number one. They probably don't really get that.
Speaker 3:
They need it exactly where we go and Katie, that's an excellent point. I didn't know how bad I was till I was given a sabbatical. The first few days of that sabbatical I actually thought I was having a nervous breakdown. I'm a pretty steady guy emotionally and my emotions bounced from high to low every hour. I literally came in and sat down on a stool in our kitchen in front of Lynn at our island and I just said what is happening to me? Because my emotions are bouncing from high to low every hour. And Lynn simply said you're okay, you're decompressing, and that was the beginning of beginning to find healing for me.
Speaker 3:
But I didn't even know what was going on. I didn't even know. I didn't know what burnout was. You asked me about that. I didn't know what burnout was. People respond differently when they're burned out, depending on personality types. Mine was isolation get myself away from people, just go through the motions of what I need to be doing. That was kind of my burnout and just I, quite honestly, I felt like I just needed to get a little bit more sleep. That wasn't the answer and I've since learned that sleep is not rest. Sleep is a product of rest and I need to be rested.
Speaker 2:
Just let that soak in for a second. Take your time on that. Say it one more time for our listening audience that was sipping their coffee here Sleep is not rest.
Speaker 3:
Sleep is a byproduct of rest. If we are not resting, we will not sleep. Well, we think we can keep on going. You use the analogy of your gas tank and driving to North Carolina. Take it a step further it's your cell phone that you probably plug in every night, or at least every other night, to keep it charged up. When that cell phone goes dead and we've all had that happen I've had it happen in the middle of driving, and so you lose your GPS and we don't read maps anymore, right? No, Okay, so what do I do? Do I wish? Just push special buttons and I create more energy in that cell phone so that I can continue to follow the directions and it can do the purpose that it's there to do it. It can function the way it was designed to function. I can't wish any more energy into that cell phone until I plug it into the wall, plug it into a charger, plug it into the console in my car and hook the charging cable up to it and get restored. That's the same way we are.
Speaker 3:
We get unplugged from Jesus, Right? Well, it doesn't mean we're not in the Word, oh, no, we're in the Word because we're studying to teach. But, as John 15.5 says, I'm the vine, you're the branches. Jesus is saying this to his disciples. He said when you remain in me and I remain in you, you will produce much fruit. We like that. That's the American way. Bigger and better right, Much fruit, we like much fruit. But we forget the last phrase of that verse. We often overlook it. It says apart from me, you can do nothing. And nothing in the language of the New Testament means nothing right, and apart is a word that we don't even pay attention to. But apart means at a distance, and at a distance from Jesus, you and I can do nothing. That's the cell phone getting plugged in. If we're not plugged into our intimate relationship with the Lord on a daily basis, we're running on our own strength and we're going to be on fumes pretty quick.
Speaker 2:
That's an excellent point, and there's many. I know many pastors personally that are and have exhibited many of the signs that you just described.
Speaker 3:
And when you're aware of it, you see it, or if you've experienced, it. Like you can see it.
Speaker 2:
Oh man, yeah, you can. That's why I get nervous being around him.
Speaker 4:
I'm like I'm going to be my best face for him Because he's going to see it, but I'm tired of her.
Speaker 2:
He's going to see through that.
Speaker 4:
How you doing, Teddy.
Speaker 5:
I'm great Praise the Lord, brother.
Speaker 1:
But you know, because of that, your approach is just so compassionate. It's almost like, okay, I recognize that and I mean, doesn't Jesus handle us the same way? He doesn't thrust us in front of the mirror, he takes our hand, he says come here, I want to show you something. We need to take a look at this, and that's what that did for me that weekend and just simplistic things that you wouldn't really think about, that I'm spending all my time on this, but I'm really good at this Over here on the right hand side. I'm spending all my time on this on the left, and I'm not going to get into too much because you have to go and you have to experience but things that we think we know.
Speaker 1:
But once you have the time and you don't have all these other distractions, meetings and I got to get to this and I got to get to Bible study and all important things, but you are away from your home, you are away from your element and you're with like-minded people that are experiencing the same thing, and that's when you have the time to really look at it.
Speaker 2:
Where can they find out about?
Speaker 3:
your ministry and thrive leadlife.
Speaker 2:
Thriveleadlife.
Speaker 3:
Yeah or thriveleadorg. Either one will get you there.
Speaker 2:
And we're gonna continue this interview, but I'm just, you know, this is.
Speaker 1:
I wanted to ask too. So how long have you guys been doing this? I know you've had some mentors and how it started.
Speaker 2:
We met one of them.
Speaker 1:
So tell us a little bit about that part of it too.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, we've been doing it. We're going on our seventh year, I think, starting with Thrive. Yeah, we started in 2017. We were officially recognized as a nonprofit and then really full-time started in January of 2018. So we've been doing this for a number of years, but prior to that, the 11 years that we spent with the missions, churches and missions we did a lot of ministry into pastors and wives during that time and that's really where the need came to the forefront that we can't do both short-term mission trips and minister to people in ministry. It's just it's two different ministries that we wanna put all of our energy towards ministering to those in ministry and helping them become healthy.
Speaker 3:
I believe we should be the healthiest, best leaders in the world should be in the church and in ministry, and we're not.
Speaker 3:
We're just as in bad shape as the leaders in the world, and so we really believe we need to be the best leaders and we need to be healthy. But the problem is I heard a guy explain it this way recently is we drive on too many lanes in our lives and we gotta get back to the lane that God has for us. When we're on four and five lanes and sometimes that happens in life. We've gotta realize it and then come back to the lane that God has for us. And I think that's where we've gotta move in the lives of pastors and their wives is to help them get back to that lane that God has for them and that's what he created them for. I mean, that's the exciting thing about it. Katie, you mentioned something else that it really felt like you didn't use this word, but I'm gonna use this word a safe place when you came, because we had been there, we've been on this road and we're still there.
Speaker 3:
It's amazing. Here this week I've got a number of friends who have come up to me and said I've never seen you this tired, are you okay? Speaking to me and I'm going like no, I've gone through a real tough two and a half months and I'm pretty worn out. We're pretty exhausted with some of the things that we've experienced over the last two and a half months. It's been challenging for us, but to have them and the guys coming up and saying that have all been to our refresh and it's fun because they're stepping into my world and saying, okay, scott, you teach all this stuff, but where are you really at with it and you know what? It's stuff I have to continually work on. It's not like you get over burnout and then you're fine. You're susceptible to go back there and some personalities are more susceptible to going back to burnout. So that's where I can find myself is going back there.
Speaker 3:
But our desire is that people have a safe place, especially people in ministry, in creating that safe place where they can share, and it's not with the person that holds their paycheck, it's not with the congregation that all of a sudden says well, I can't follow a weak leader like that because he struggles with burnout. We create that safe place and it's not because we've designed it that way. It's how God's wired Lynn and me to be a safe spot for people. We're nothing special. We're just Scott and Lynn Jackson. We put our pants on the same way you do, one leg at a time. There's nothing uniquely special about us. I actually do All right, freddie, I can see you jumping into yours. Probably you know.
Speaker 3:
Well, we think you're pretty special but we get your point, but it's not that we don't have any secret sauce, but we've got an incredible God who wants to work in our life and who wants us to stay within the way he's created us. We all have there's boundaries and there's speed limits for each and every one of us. Just like there's speed limits on the road, there's speed limits for the way that we live our lives. There's boundaries for the way that we need to live our lives. You know I've said this to pastors often you know there's nine commandments that if you break one of them you can lose your job. But there's one, if you break it, you may get an out of boy and you might even get a raise, and that's that commandment. On Sabbath, are we really resting in our lives one day out of seven? That's a real challenge for all of us and it's a challenge for me. So I'm not saying I've got it all wired. I don't. I have to work at seven.